>> CHICAGO, TONIGHT'S COVERAGE OF PUBLIC SAFETY IS SUPPORTED BY THE SOO LEE CHARITABLE FOUNDATION INITIATIVE FOR REDUCING VIOLENCE IN CHICAGO.

>> CRIME OVERALL IS FALLING NATIONWIDE.

BUT THE NUMBERS ON THE MOST SERIOUS CRIME HOMICIDE SHOW CHICAGO'S CASES ARE NOT DECLINING AS QUICKLY AS THE 2 LARGEST CITIES IN THE NATION.

NEW YORK AND L A JUST WHY CHICAGO LAG BEHIND THE NATION'S 2 LARGEST CITIES AND HOMICIDE NUMBERS.

AND WHAT CAN THE CITY LEARN FROM THEM?

JOINING US, OUR ANDREW POPPA CHRISTMAS PROFESSOR OF SOCIOLOGY AT NORTHWESTERN UNIVERSITY AND KATE AND THE BABY WHO WAS ON THE FACULTY IN CRIMINOLOGY AT DEPAUL UNIVERSITY AND JOINING US VIA ZOOM, OUR JIM MCDONNELL, THE FORMER SHERIFF OF LOS ANGELES COUNTY AND NOW DIRECTOR OF THE UNIVERSITY OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA IS SAFE COMMUNITIES INSTITUTE AND SNYDER, RETIRED NEW YORK CITY POLICE OFFICER ADJUNCT LECTURER AT JOHN JAY COLLEGE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE IN NEW YORK AND POLICY DIRECTOR OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE AND CIVIL LIBERTIES AT THE THINK TANK R STREET INSTITUTE IN WASHINGTON, D.C., WE THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE.

AND I'VE BEEN WANTING TO LOOK AT THIS QUESTION FOR SO LONG BECAUSE I THINK THIS IS SORT OF AND OR EXAMINE THE MEDIA COMPARING CHICAGO, NEW YORK AND LA CAN SHOW THAT LOOKING AT A HOMICIDE NUMBERS IN 1990, CHICAGO 8.49 NEW YORK CITY MORE THAN 2200 LOS ANGELES.

NEARLY 1000 LOOK AT HOW FAR NEW YORK CITY AND LOS ANGELES DROP CHICAGO DROP, BUT NOT NEARLY AS MUCH KAYLYN.

THE VENUES ARE ANY.

THERE EASY EXPLANATION FOR THAT?

>> YEAH, WELL, FOOT BOOK FOR STAFF.

SO THIS IS NUMBER OF SHEER HOMICIDES THE COUNT.

SO WHAT WE LIKE TO DO IN CRIMINOLOGY AND WHAT I THINK IS A BETTER ANALYSIS IS TO GROUND IT IN POPULATION.

SO WE DO NOW.

CHICAGO IS STILL MUCH ABOVE THE REST, BUT WE LIKE TO PUT HIM A CATEGORY WITH CITIES, THE SAME POPULAR.

CLEARLY THE RATES WERE SIMILAR IN THE 90'S AND IT SEEMS LIKE THE RATES IN NEW YORK AND LA WENT DOWN MUCH, MUCH GREATER THAN CHICAGO.

YES, THAT'S TRUE.

WE WE AT OF OUR CITIES, WE HAVE THE HOMICIDES PER 100,000 PEOPLE.

LA IN NEW YORK, NEW YORK HAS ALWAYS SAID IT MUCH BETTER THAN THAT.

THEY'VE ALWAYS BEEN PRETTY WE STAND OUT WITH THAT.

AND I THINK WHEN WE LOOK AT WHY LOOK AT UP, HISTORICAL POLICIES OF SOCIAL ISOLATION OF RACIAL DISCRIMINATION OF CONCENTRATED POVERTY THAT SPEAK TO NUMBERS THAT HAVE STUART HIP HAVE HISTORICALLY BEEN HIGHER THAN NEW YORK AND LOS ANGELES.

JULIAN SNYDER, YOU ARE, OF COURSE, IN THE NYPD.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE YOUR CITY, WHAT YOU'RE ABLE TO ACCOMPLISH THERE WHAT WHAT'S GOING ON IN CHICAGO?

>> I DO WANT TO JUST POINT OUT THAT CHICAGO IS TRENDING DOWNWARD.

THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WE SHOULD BE LOOKING AT AND THEIR NUMBERS TO DATE.

AS OF LAST, WE DID GO DOWN.

BUT LOOKING AT THE NYPD COMPARED TO CHICAGO, WE WERE REALLY FORTUNATE THAT WE HAD POLICE COMMISSIONER BRATTON COME ON IN THE 90'S AND IMPLEMENT SOME OF THE MOST NOVEL INITIATIVES THAT POLICE SAY HAD SEEN AT THAT TIME BROKEN WINDOWS.

METHODOLOGY CAME OUT.

WE STARTED REALLY FOCUSING LOWER-LEVEL OFFENSE IS QUALITY OF LIFE OFFENSE IS BECAUSE THE POINT IS NOT TO OVER ARREST BUT INSTEAD TO REALLY PUT FORTH THE COLLECTIVE EFFICACY THAT GIVES NEIGHBORHOODS THE THE REASON THAT THEY WANT TO KEEP THEIR COMMUNITY SAFE.

AND I THINK IT WAS PIVOTAL IN THAT MOVEMENT.

JIM MCDONNELL, WHAT ABOUT LOS ANGELES?

A VERY LARGE DROP.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE LONG TERM.

>> COMPARED TO CHICAGO, WHAT WHAT WENT RIGHT THERE?

>> YOU KNOW, I LOOK AT WHERE WE WERE IN LOS ANGELES BACK IN 93 WHERE WE HAD JUST UNDER 1100 VOTERS, I BELIEVE ONLY FINISHED UP 2019 WITH 252 MURDERS.

THAT'S ABOUT AN 80% DECREASE IN NOT IN HOMICIDES IN JUST ONE CITY.

AND YET NOBODY WAS TALKING ABOUT THAT.

WE SHOULD HAVE BUILT ON THE GREAT FOUNDATION.

WE HADN'T CONTINUED IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION AND WHAT WE'VE SINCE THAT TIME, BOTH 2020 IN PARTICULAR HAS BEEN CRIME GOING IN THE WRONG DIRECTION FOR REASONS THAT WERE PREDICTABLE.

I THINK WHEN YOU LOOK COMPARING CITIES FOR FOR HOMICIDE, FOR VIOLENT CRIME AND FOR OTHER CRIMES, THERE'S IT'S A NUANCED SITUATION.

AND I THINK THERE'S A TENDENCY TO USE IT AS A SOUND BITE.

BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE POLICE AND WHAT THEY'VE DONE, A SUCCESSOR OR NOT SO MUCH, POLICE ARE JUST ONE PART OF THE OVERALL EQUATION.

YOU'VE GOT PROSECUTORS.

YOU'VE GOT JUDICIAL SYSTEM.

YOU HAVE THE POLITICAL CLIMATE TO DO ALL OPERATE IN WHAT'S ENFORCED.

WHAT'S NOT ENFORCE?

WHAT'S OKAY TODAY WITH THAT BEFORE AND VICE VERSA.

SO OPERATE IN AN ECOSYSTEM AND YOU DO THE BEST YOU CAN WITH WHAT YOU HAVE.

BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, IF THE POLICE DON'T HAVE THE SUPPORT OF THE PUBLIC AND DON'T GET A FAIR SHAKE IN THEIR MIND FROM THE MEDIA.

THE LACK OF ENGAGEMENT THAT YOU'LL SEE IS SOMETHING IS FAIRLY PREDICTABLE.

WHAT WE'VE SEEN THAT FOLKS 2020 AND IN CERTAIN CITIES ACROSS AMERICA.

>> AND REPUBLIC RISTOW SAY THAT PART OF THE ECOSYSTEM IS SOCIOECONOMIC STATUS OF THE CITY CHICAGO A VERY DIFFERENT CITY THAN LA NEW YORK.

DOES THAT PLAY INTO THE DIFFERENCE HERE?

VERY MUCH OF THIS DIFFERENCE.

I MEAN, SO IN ADDITION TO SOME OF THESE ARE POINTING OUT AROUND THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE ACTIONS THAT HAPPENED, SPACES, NEW YORK IS A GENTRIFIED LARGE PARTS OF NEW YORK, MASSIVE PARTS OF MANHATTAN.

WHEN WE THINK ABOUT WHAT BROOKLYN AND THE BRONX LOOKED LIKE IN THE 1990'S, EVEN WE LOOK THERE TODAY, IT'S CHANGED.

IT'S STILL VERY SEGREGATED, BUT START OF SEGREGATED CHICAGO OTHER CHANGES THAT HAPPEN IN LOS ANGELES.

IN ADDITION TO CHANGING SERVING CONTEST, THEY WERE UNDER A CONSENT DECREE AND CHANGED A LOT OF THE THINGS THAT CITIES LIKE CHICAGO ONLY DOING RIGHT NOW.

AND WE TALKED ABOUT THE POLICE EFFORTS.

THE OTHER THING THAT LOS ANGELES DID VERY, VERY WELL, 15, 20 YEARS AGO WAS BRINGING TOGETHER SORT THE MEANS OF PUBLIC SAFETY, RIGHT?

SO THEY HAD AN OFFICE, THE GREAT OFFICE WHICH LOOKED AT BRINGING TOGETHER, SAY STREET OUTREACH, LAW ENFORCEMENT AND REALLY COORDINATING THINGS IN MUCH DIFFERENT WAYS THAT YOU ONLY SEEING NOW CITIES LIKE LIKE CHICAGO AND ONE FINAL THING, WE CANNOT SAY IS THAT GAMES IN NEW YORK WERE NEVER SORT OF HIS INSTITUTIONALIZED AS LA OR CHICAGO FOR STUFF THAT THEY DID IN THE 60'S AND 70'S.

THEY HAVE GREAT.

THEY HAVE GANGS.

THEY HAVE CREWS.

BUT WHAT CHICAGO AND ATLANTA LOOKED LIKE IN THE 90'S WAS VERY DIFFERENT.

NEW YORK IS THE WEIRD ONE HERE.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE HOLIDAY BECAME SAFE, THEY'RE VERY, VERY UNIQUE AND THEY HAD A LOT OF THINGS GOING ON AT ONE TIME COUNT OF ANY.

ARE THERE LESSONS HERE THAT CHICAGO CAN TAKE FROM NEW YORK OR LA AND APPLIED TO THE POLICE DEPARTMENT TO THE.

>> TO COMMUNITY ORGANIZATIONS OR TO THE GENERAL POLITICAL ENVIRONMENT HERE.

I THINK JUST GENERALLY WHEN I LOOK AT THE HISTORY OF POLICIES IN NEW YORK, THEY CREATED HOUSING POLICIES IN WHICH THEY DIDN'T PUT EFFORT INTO CONCENTRATED POVERTY, RACIALIZED POVERTY IN THE WAY THAT WE HAVE.

>> HOUSE AND PUBLIC POLICIES THAT TOOK THAT CREATED HOUSING IN ONE AREA BECAME CONCENTRATED AND THEN WE MOVED OUT FROM THEIR NEW YORK DOING THE SAME THE SAME WAY.

SO WHEN WE TAKE LESSONS, IT'S HOW DO WE TREAT COMMUNITIES FROM A HOLISTIC WAY THAT BECOMES ANTI-VIOLENCE.

HOW DO WE TREAT THEM TERMS OF POLICY HEALTH CARE, FOOD AT ALL OF THESE POLICIES THAT HOLISTICALLY ARE ANTI-VIOLENCE APPROACHES.

JOIN US LATER WHEN WE TALK ABOUT CHICAGO AND NATIONAL MEDIA KIND OF GET SET TAGGED WITH BEING.

>> THE MURDER CAPITAL OF THE UNITED STATES.

BUT IT'S PRETTY ERRONEOUS BECAUSE WHEN YOU LOOK AT PER CAPITA, AS WE'VE TALKED ABOUT, IT USUALLY DOESN'T EVEN CRACK THE TOP 10.

SO SO IN TERMS OF PER CAPITA CHICAGO NOT AS VIOLENT AS MAYBE SOME POOR TRAILS OF IT ARE.

>> NO, YOU'RE ACTUALLY CORRECT ACTUALLY THE MOST RECENT STUDIES HAVE SHOWN THAT WASHINGTON, D.C., BALTIMORE CHATTING THE DALLAS, NASHVILLE, MEMPHIS, THOSE CITIES, IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT IT AND YOU ARE CONTROLLING FOR POPULATION DENSITY, CHICAGO IS LOWER THAN ALL OF THEM IN TERMS OF VIOLENT CRIME HOMICIDE RATE.

>> JIM MCDONNELL IS OR DIFFERENCE IN TERMS OF HOW ALL THE CITIES ARE REPORTING THESE NUMBERS.

I KNOW THERE'S A SORT OF SYSTEM PUT IN PLACE BY THE FBI RECENT YEARS.

>> YEAH, FBI IN ASK THAT EVERYBODY BE ON BOARD.

IT'S A VOLUNTARY SYSTEM.

EVERYBODY WANTS TO COMPLY WITH THAT.

IT'S THE NATIONAL REPORTING THAT NEITHER IS THE NATIONAL INCIDENT BASED REPORTING SYSTEM TO REPLACE THE UNIFORM CRIME REPORTS WHICH GO BACK ALMOST 100 YEARS WOULD BE MORE INCLUSIVE OF CRIMES.

IT COUNT ALL CRIMES, NOT JUST THE THE PRIMARY CRIME IN PARTICULAR INCIDENT.

IT CAN.

IT ADDRESSES MANY AS 10 CRIMES AND IN CAPTURE THE DATA ON THAT THE CHALLENGES IT'S MUCH MORE LABOR INTENSIVE TO BE ABLE TO INPUT THE DATA NECESSARY TO BE ABLE TO GET THE RESULTS.

YOU WANT TO GET AND GET THAT GRANULAR LEVEL OF DETAIL AND WHAT WE'VE SEEN IN THE IN, YOU KNOW, PRIOR 2021, WHAT IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE COMPLETED, EVERYBODY BE ON BOARD.

WE DIDN'T SEE THAT.

WE SAW ABOUT 60% OR SO OF THE DEPARTMENT'S ON BOARD.

SO HAD 2 DIFFERENT CRITERIA BEING USED TO BE ABLE TO CRAFT CAPTURE CRIME THE PROBLEM WAS IT WASN'T THAT PEOPLE DIDN'T WANT TO BE ON BOARD WAS RESOURCES RECRUITMENT OR RETENTION BECAME A BIG ISSUE.

POST 2020, BOTH ON THE PROFESSIONAL SIDE OF THE HOUSE AND THIS ONE SIDE.

AND SO THERE WAS A HESITANCE THERE TO BE ABLE TO PULL PEOPLE OFF THE STREET IN SOME CASES TO BE ABLE TO GET THIS JOB DONE AND THEY DIDN'T BECOME A PRIORITY OF THAT NATURE.

WE STILL HAVE THE ISSUES WITH RECRUITMENT AND RETENTION AS WE MOVE FORWARD.

SO CHALLENGES JUST IN THE LOGISTICS OF BEING ABLE TO GET THAT DONE.

BUT WE'RE MOVING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

>> THEN ANDREW, PAPA CHRIS TOASTY.

WE TALKED ABOUT PRETTY MUCH MOST CITIES HAVE SEEN A DROP IN HOMICIDES SINCE THE SPIKE IN THE PANDEMIC HERE AS THAT SOMETHING TO THAT CHICAGO CAN HANG ITS HAT ON OR IS IT JUST KIND OF JUST HAPPENING REGARDLESS OF POLICY?

NO, I THINK CHICAGO'S BUT A LOT OF EFFORT INTO SORT OF SET ACTUALLY SCOTIA PUTTING OUT AFTER 2016 BEFORE THE PANDEMIC AND IT'S COMMUNITY VIOLENCE.

INFRASTRUCTURE.

AND IN FACT, THOSE DIVIDENDS, I THINK PAID OFF DURING COVID AND ONE OF OUR, YOU KNOW, A PARTNER TEAMS.

ANALYSIS SHOWED, YOU KNOW THAT WE HAVE A SET OF ORGANIZATIONS THAT HAVE CONTRIBUTED.

THE RATE WOULD MUCH HIGHER.

HAD THEY NOT BEEN IN PLACE.

IT'S HARD TO IMAGINE A WORLD WITHOUT COVID.

WE CAN'T DO THAT.

ALWAYS BE A LITTLE ASTERIX.

BUT WHAT WE KNOW IS IF SOME OF THESE THINGS WERE PLACE THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN HOMICIDES SHOOTINGS GOING DURING COVID, I WENT TO REPORTING IN EACH OF THE NEIGHBORS TO SEE HOW MANY COMMUNITY ORGANIZATIONS ARE THERE.

AN ACTIVE NO DOUBT THAT THEY MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN TERMS OF PUTTING A DENT IN THE IN THOSE NUMBERS.

WE CAN TALK ABOUT THIS ALSO, BUT WE HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

MY THANKS