By the year 2030, one in five Americans will be of retirement age.

Beers Mallers - elder law attorneys counsel individuals regarding matters of setting up estates, trusts and help navigate difficult family situations.

Beers Mallers, attorneys at law with offices in Fort Wayne, LaGrange, and on the web at BeersMallers.com.

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Good evening and welcome to PBS Fort Wayne.

I'm Sally Thompson, the host of this show coming up.

But it's really your show oh this is called LIFE Ahead.

What we do here is each Wednesday night at seven thirty we bring you education and information on topics that you probably will have to deal with at some point in your LIFE Ahead.

>> That's the name of the show and the thing I want you to really know is that I said at your show there's a phone number at the bottom of the screen.

>> You can see that and we're going to have that up here periodically here in the next half hour and you can give us a call and ask our panel about questions that you'd like to have answered.

Got an opportunity to get some complimentary advice actually.

Oh, we have an attorney here who's been with us many times and this is Troy Kiffer Troyes at the far end of the couch in the blue shirt.

>> I'm looking to see here what you got.

All right.

Blue shirt and Troy, thank you for coming.

>> Well, thank you for having me.

It's always a joy to be here with you.

Well, it's just fun, isn't it?

You know, we always have interesting topics and it it's more interesting if if we have callers we really want to encourage that as much as possible.

Now he's brought along a friend to help talk about this topic because it's very timely and that is curtness Kirt, thank you for being here.

>> Thank you for having me.

Sandy , you might recognize Kurt or his family from Huntington and now Fort Wayne you guys are just everywhere it seems like I grew up in Huntington County so I knew who you guys were Waymark Yes.

>> Well, what we're going to talk about is downsizing and there are several elements obviously what legal things you need to take care of and Kurt will be the expert on how you can do that, how you can make that an easier transition for you and for your family.

>> Let's start with you, Troy.

Why are we talking about this?

>> Why is this topic relevant right now?

Yeah, well, people of a certain age or older people are facing some of the most difficult times in their lives.

Yeah, there are a lot of transitions, a lot of changes and very often are least able to handle those changes at that age.

One of those big changes is being in a larger home by themselves perhaps moving, downsizing, moving to maybe a facility assisted living or a nursing home and they just have a lot of property, personal property, real estate.

So how do you make that transition and support that person in the best way possible?

>> Well, and the tough thing is obviously because you're usually well in that case as we're talking about if you're older you have less energy and less time and less strength and to tackle downsizing from a four bedroom family home, you know, to go to a two bedroom condo or or villa or something like that is is just physically a big chore to think about.

>> Yeah, well, I'll tell you we just moved our daughter and how old is she?

>> Well she's she's twenty six.

OK but she had relatively few things and it wore me out so yes I can imagine what it's like for older people when they face that.

>> Yeah exactly.

>> Well you can tell us what our clients you have it how can they deal with that because this is obviously an emotional thing for them as well as the physical job that they're going to be doing.

>> How do they do that constructively?

I think that one the key points is to develop a plan and have stuff in writing as far as the different steps that are involved and they have to keep probably at the top of the list why they want to downsize because keep reminding them exactly because they're good.

>> They're going to get frustrated, they're going to get overwhelmed at times and they need to look at why what are the benefits of downsizing and by having that plan in place it allows them not only to have a roadmap but also other people that are involved can kind of see where they're on that roadmap to help them along.

>> Who makes that plan, KO'd?

Well, is basically they themselves need to kind of there's a series of questions that they need to ask themselves like no one is where do they see themselves, you know, in a year or two as an example, what steps do they have to go to get there as far as dealing with their stuff?

Yeah, and having a plan in place that will help them deal with the stuff whether it's giving it to family members charity some stuff unfortunately doesn't have a lot of value and then you have the stuff that does have value.

>> Isn't that weird?

Wonderful stuff after you after year I mean that really kind of surprised the whole lot of what you have in your home.

>> It's the stuff that we somebody told me years ago and I'm now seeing that that's very true that the first half of your life is spent acquiring things in the last half of your life is getting rid of things that you've acquired and sometimes that's hard to do, especially if it's something that has a sentimental value or maybe something you bought on a trip that reminds you of that time of your life .

>> I always had a hard time letting go of anything that was a gift to me from somebody I felt like I would be insulting them if I got rid of whatever was the gift that they gave me even though it's maybe something I haven't used for twenty years and have no need for anymore.

>> But still I just I don't know I have a hard time with that.

What do you find most people have a difficult time giving up.

>> Well I think number one the emotional feelings that are attached to that stuff.

Yeah.

And then you know and we encourage people to do that.

Let's say something that's been passed down through the family.

Yeah, right.

A little story about it and attach it to it and then maybe give it to a grandchild and then that way you're given a part of your history of the family and passing it on would be an example.

>> I think that I guess personally maybe I think it's a good idea if you start doing that early and not wait until it's time for you to downsize and move to a small place.

>> But I mean start giving your kids things now how about your daughter?

>> You could have moved some of your stuff over well maybe we did.

>> Yeah.

She doesn't know about that stuff.

Yeah.

You know, what do you have to do with it?

>> Troyes legally what does what do people or clients come to you for when they're getting ready to make some big downsizing move?

>> Yeah, as Kurt said, it's part of an overall plan.

Yeah.

And so often we are looking at what are their long term health needs and do we need to plan for Medicaid?

Do we need to look at other special services that they might need so and it all flows together to make sure that holistically the person is being taken care of and they know where they're going.

I mean they said they have a plan and that includes the legal side of things to state documents and of course there wills provide them a legal way to pass on.

Sure.

All kinds of property, personal property, real estate, et cetera to the people they want those things to go to including family charity.

So we talk a lot about those things when we work with people regarding their wills and and trusts.

>> Do people normally have a will and a power of attorney and all of those things named and documented and legal before or is that a last minute thing is downsizing um, it's really all over the board.

There really isn't a relationship or between the two we have people who have had their legal documents ready to go for years and they've been planning moving towards this and then we have other people who don't have anything at that stage in life .

So there really is no correlation between those events.

But we always look at them whether they need those documents or not and regardless of what age they're at, they certainly need powers of attorney look at their their gifting options not only wills but non probate transfers.

And I always tell people as well just as has been mentioned, the best time to make a gift is during your life because if you do that no one can argue later as to whether or not you really wanted to make that gift.

>> Absolutely legally went to the person you wanted it to go to.

>> OK, all right.

That reminds me what seems to be a controversy for a lot of people as you're approaching that time where you think it's time for you to downsize and you have your legal documents in order.

But how about your personal things?

Do you think Troy and Kurt as well that you need to make your children or whomever you're leaving stuff to make them aware of that or give them a copy of your well, what do you think, Troy?

>> That's one of those personal preference things I have some people just their their personality the way they look at life , they're very private and for whatever reason they don't want their beneficiaries or people named in their will to know what their will says.

They want to continue to be private for those people.

I recommend that they at least tell their family where those documents are in their home.

True.

But others they're completely open and I have a lot of people when they get their documents say oh you know, the kids are going to be over this weekend.

We're going to sit down.

We're going to go over all this with them so there's no confusion if there happened to be any hard feelings will get that out on the table now.

So yeah, we can address that for before we the parents are gone.

And so there really isn't a right or wrong answer.

There are pros and cons.

>> It depends on the situation in the PMO, right.

Well, I'm one of them was like get it out in the open and I'd rather talk about it and work through any hard feelings while I'm still there myself I guess rather than have have all that happen after I passed in and then how do you solve it?

>> I don't know.

>> Do you have this problem ever with people that come to you current or you're you're a professional and helping people get rid of their stuff?

I'm going back to the emotion part of now.

>> How do people deal with physically giving away things?

I think what are the things that we try to emphasize is the fact that if they're giving it away and it's going to a good cause or helping an individual so we're associating something positive with the aspect.

You know, as Troy was saying, we we encounter people all the time that don't have a will and oh we oh yes we don't and we talk about yes that this is a chapter in your life and having someone like Troy that goes through and gets everything lined up will eliminate a lot of problems down down the road because we tell people would you rather make the decision yourself or have somebody else make the decision and most people want to have that control of making the decision.

>> So what do you do?

I mean what do you do if people come to you and say OK, I need for your business to help me get rid of all this stuff whether it's take it somewhere or give it away have an option.

>> However, we're going to get rid of this stuff but they don't have a world.

>> What do you do?

Well, you know, what we try to do is we say we're going to give you a general outline of things that you need to address in this chapter of your life .

>> I'm not here to try to push you but we can kind of tell them some of the pros and cons of having a will versus not having a will and so that their wishes are you done and then kind of working through things because we've had situations I remember one where a woman did not have a will and unfortunately before she moved she fell and hit her head on the doorknob and was paralyzed from the neck down and she still would not get a she had no power.

>> She had no will.

Oh my goodness.

And even when she was in a nursing home she refused and I you can only imagine the legal problem that I mean what was her reasoning?

>> That's a good question.

I can't answer that sometimes there is no reason or not one that we can understand.

>> I mean there must be some fear somewhere maybe she well, I think definitely there's somebody that had a bad experience something wow.

>> Yeah.

Well that's why we have people like you to try to figure out for them what to do.

>> Yeah.

Don't forget you can give us a call.

That number is right there on the bottom of the screen.

Ninety six nine twenty seven twenty and Curt and Troy will help you with your particular problem.

OK, all right.

Let's say that you're starting to get rid of your stuff again that magic word.

>> Let's talk about clothing.

>> What do you do with all your clothing?

Basically we try to look at and say have you wore this piece of article in the last year if you have not then let's you know, unless it's some leather or fur it really doesn't have a financial value.

Yeah, but can we give it to a charity where you know, there's people that would definitely like these types of clothes and so what we try to do is to get them in the mindset of if you're if you're downsizing going to a smaller facility, you're not going to have a huge walk in closet like you have today and just kind of you know, in a perfect world downsizing doesn't happen in thirty days, 90 days.

But but it's over a process of maybe twelve months and then that way it's kind of like the old story you eat an elephant one bite at a time and just kind of work at it that way.

>> Oh, that's a tough one.

>> Yeah I just wanted to interject because you mentioned value.

>> Yeah.

And it's a real advantage of working with an auctioneer like Kurt is that a specialist knows the value of things and if we can reduce the reduce it to the things that are really monetarily valuable yeah.

That can help the decision making.

I know we work with a lot of people through their estates and they think that they have a lot of valuable things such as plates and antique china and silver china figurines and collectibles.

>> Yeah and come to find out younger people just aren't interested in those things anymore.

>> I know.

So do you find that all the time?

All the time we were talking to Antique Mall and there they were telling the clients what they paid for it thirty years ago.

That's what it's worth today.

Yeah.

And we have had people that have gone out and bought figurines telling their children this is going to be your inheritance and unfortunately the value is not there.

>> Yeah, and it's kind of sad but that's the truth and I'm right with you, Troy.

When you said younger people now just don't want those things, I mean it's a whole different lifestyle now.

They don't want China and Silver and you know, all of those kind of things.

>> We do have a phone call that's from Kim Kim, thank you so much for watching us here on Life Head.

>> And here's what Kim wants to know what is the best method to bring up downsizing with your parents?

>> Aha.

So the discussion OK, you want to tackle that one?

>> Yeah.

Start you know, I think the aspect of getting people to realize that, you know, their mobility is declining and let's be pro active versus reactive and the idea of kind of selling it on the if you want to say selling it on here's an opportunity to give stuff away to the grandkids or maybe write the notes so that you know, they're passing on some of their history down to them so you start little and you kind of work that way.

>> I know my daughter had asked me at one point things that had been passed down through the family whether it was a nightstand or you know or based on or whatever that was important enough to to keep in the family.

To put a little note on the bottom of this was from, you know, great grandma so-and-so, you know, or whatever so that she had an idea of the history .

>> But did people do that or I don't know.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

But what about the method and I've heard a lot of people do this that they go around their house and they put stickers or or something on all of their items to which kid that's going to go to whether it's dishes or tables or whatever.

>> Good idea or not .

Once again it depends on the the person it depends on the family.

Now is that method legally binding?

>> It is not oh that's good.

Unless you're will specifically you know states that OK but I've never seen that.

>> Yeah.

And never had anyone asked to to put that in a will usually it comes down to the personal representative in how they wish they they think it's fair to distribute items and you have some people some families that hey they're just whatever you want to do we're going to work things out.

You have other families that want to go to an auction and reduce everything to cash and if you want something you buy it you buy it at your parents auction.

Right with the idea that you'll have a discount because you'll be receiving some of that money money back so you'll have a leg up on the public.

>> But what if you don't get it in the auction that ever happened here?

>> We have had that happen and what do you do?

Well, I mean they control as far as if they want it the price that they're getting at getting for it.

So basically we just let the system work through it.

One of the challenges I've seen is where a parent has promised to children when I same thing.

>> Yeah.

That you know is that flip a coin or play rock scissors or whatever kind goes back to the family the dynamics of the family.

>> Yeah yeah.

Huh.

Oh big big decisions to make here OK I hope we'll get another phone call or two here before the end of our show.

We always appreciate you watching and we want to make sure that we trying to give you the information that you want to know about.

OK, I have a few more things to ask though.

How does one go about DECL Ring to begin that process of downsizing?

>> Do they ask for help professional players family what happens Kurt?

>> I think one of the things that comes involved is the availability of people to help them because nowadays we have situations that the kids I mean I have got a son that lives in California and a daughter in New Jersey so they might not have that if they've got a church organization that can people can come in and help.

But what we try to encourage him is go to the room that's least used and start aren't there start there because we haven't in that room for a couple of years.

>> More than likely there's there's stuff that you don't need anymore and maybe it's easier to give up because if you haven't used that room and that stuff.

>> Yes.

Is not, you know, front of mine.

>> Mm hmm.

Oh that's a good suggestion idea then what next what are we going to do here?

>> How are we going to dig clutter?

Well, what I see in Detroit I tried to and I don't have any good ideas on how to do that other than that that was basically my idea.

Look at things that you haven't used maybe you have forgotten about.

>> Yeah.

Uh, have you touched this item in the last few months and if you haven't it you really need to have that discussion and I think something that needs to be mentioned going back maybe to a previous question how can a child help a parent start to wonder?

I think that's a really that can be a touchy thing and I think the child needs to start slow if you have a very strong willed child and they they come in and say OK, we're going to do this this weekend, you can be involved or not that that's a bad way to go.

>> Yeah, that makes things pretty emotional which leads me to maybe kind of a situation that that might touch upon is hoarding do you find hoarding?

>> We often offering we're seeing more and more of it.

We've had really more trouble.

>> Yes.

Where we've literally had to have a drone fly through the house so that we can see what's there.

>> Yes.

Yes.

That's scary.

It can be a little bit you said more and more.

>> Do you think it's a trend that maybe 20 years ago you didn't see that often but now you see more often I'm going to say yes because I know from our perspective we're working more and more with people that are downsizing so and you have this situation that people are living longer and that's true and now you know, they maybe have come through a generation that they're in their nineties.

They grew up through the Depression.

>> They never throw anything away.

But that's really I don't see that individual really hoarding hoarding is a mental sickness and so it's you've got to handle it totally different with kid gloves to say the least.

>> Exactly.

And from what I have heard often that takes a professional that needs to be there to help that person emotionally through the process.

>> Definitely.

All right.

Last minute we only have a minute or so to go last things, Troy, that people might need to know from a legal standpoint if they're going to downsize.

>> Well, I I come back to the will and the trust and you brought up some very good points about making sure that people if they want a certain item to go to a child, make sure it's named in the will.

Nowadays we use what they call personal property memorandum that you can it's a list that you can attach to the will and make changes at any time.

OK, without going back and seeing the attorney so I encourage the you just do that yourself and attach it to the will, OK?

>> You don't have to take it back.

Go back to the attorney.

>> Right.

There are certain requirements it has to refer to the will and when you signed it and you have to sign that list but I encourage the use of that and that's kind of an ongoing thing you can do current what do you recommend to people?

>> You know, going back to your earlier question as far as where they start, we tell people to classify things in four areas.

Number one things they love number two things that basically they want to give away number three stuff that really doesn't have value and number four, the items that are valuable.

So that allows them to start to get some organization.

>> Well, that's a good certainly a good piece of advice here for you and I like the idea of like I want to go home now and pick out which room is the least used in start you know, category things what I'm going to do with that information.

>> Thank you so much Kirk Ness and a Troicki for thank you so much for being with us.

>> Thank you.

Thank you for an audience and don't forget I'll be right back here next Wednesday night at seven thirty or if a new topic and new guest have a good night.

Stay safe, stay healthy Beers Mallers - Elder law attorneys providing information on legal matters of guardianship and financial issues relating to nursing home care.

Beers Mallers attorneys can also assist with Medicaid requirements and help navigate difficult family situations.

Beers Mallers - Attorneys at law with offices in Fort Wayne, LaGrange and on the web at BeersMallers.com.