March 23, 2023

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S >> >> ONE THING I'VE LEARNED IN MY LONG LIFE IS IS policy looks crazy, it probably is.

Christiane: LOOKS CRAZY IT PROBABLY IS.

>> THE I speak to the man who blew the WHISTLEBLOWERS.

I SPEAK TO THE MAN WHO BLEW THE LID ON THE VIET At AT ALMOST 92 DANIEL ELLSBERG joins me on the LESSONS HE'S learned holding government to account.

♪ GOVERNMENT TO AND -- ♪ I'LL TAKE THE WORLD APART ♪ TO FIND A PLACE FOR A PEACEFUL HEART ♪ ♪ I KNOW >> LEGENDARY Stevens comes to YUSUF CAT STEVENS COMES STUDIO TO TALK ABOUT HIS NEW ALBUM A >> SLOT AT GLASTONBURY THIS to our PLUS -- >> WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENS TO OUR COMMUNICATE, HOW WE Christiane: OURSELVES WHEN THESE THINGS we be about artificial intelligence?

ARRIVE.

>> HOW WORRIED SHOULD WE BE ABOUT ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE?

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program.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

THE 20th ANNIVERSARY OF THE war reminds WAR THIS WEEK REMINDS US ALL importance of holding government to THE CRITICAL IMPORTANCE HOLDING FAST FORWARD TO the world, from Russia's latest invasion of Ukraine to AUTOCRATS ARE WAGING WARS AROUND THE WORLD.

FROM RUSSIA'S LATEST YEAR-LONG INVASION OF UKRAINE TO IRAN' battle with BATTLE The brave women to the streets remind us of the TO THE STREETS REMIND US OF THE POWER AND VA truth to power.

TRUTH TO POWER.

WHISTLEBLOWING PLAYS A CRUCIAL ROLE role in this pursuit.

WITHOUT IT UNJUST WARS BEGIN AND INJUSTICES GO UNCHECKED.

DANIEL ELLSBERG IS patron saint PATRON SAINT OF THEM ALL.

ANYONE WHO KNOWS Anybody who knows anything about AME Vietnam knows his name to this day.

VIETNAM KNOWS HIS Because of one giant leap DAY BECAUSE courage and constant COURAGE AND CONSCIENCE, conscience, leaking the Pentagon THE PENTAGON PAPERS IN 1971 AT GREAT PERSONAL RISK CHANGED THE COURSE OF It changed the course of history by revealing America REVEALING knew the war was unwinnable.

THE WAR WAS UNWINNABLE.

50 YEARS LATER deeply committed to peace and transparency.

DEEPLY COMMITTED TO PEACE AND TRANSPARENCY.

BUT THIS MONTH AT A revealed his latest personal battle REVEALED HIS LATEST PERSONAL BATTLE AFTER with inoperable pancreatic cancer.

WITH INOPERABLE When he joined CA CANCER.

AND SO WHEN HE JO BERKELEY, CALIFORNIA WE TALKED ABOUT HIS LIFE, HIS above all, how to save MOMENT AND ABOVE ALL speaking out.

LI Welcome to the program.

>> >> DANIEL ELLSBERG, WELCOME THE PROGRAM.

>> GLAD TO BE HERE, CHRISTIANE.

feeling.

>> HOW YOU'RE FEELING?

matter of >> I'M MATTER OF FACT.

PEOPLE time.

TIME AS I think that is pretty hard to do.

LAST.

I THINK THAT'S PRETTY HARD TO DO.

YOU'VE GOT APPOINTMENTS People to say goodbye to.

PEOPLE TO SAY GOOD-BYE TO.

BUT well.

WORKS VERY WELL.

AS THOUGH I'M HAVING A VERY GOOD TIME HERE.

SEEING RELATIVES, SEEING ALL MY GRANDCHILDREN, AND EATING FOOD had a salt free diet.

HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO EAT FOR YEARS BECAUSE I HAD Christiane: DIET, WHICH I AM NOW OFF.

>> WELL, YOU ARE REFUSING treatment TR It is incredible AND IT IS INCREDIBLE TO you are having a wonderful time.

SAYING YOU'RE HAVING A WONDERFUL decision.

You seem to be at TIME.

YOU'VE OBVIOUSLY >> AND YOU SEEM TO BE AT PEACE WITH IT.

>> YES.

YES.

IT'S BEEN -- BY THE WAY, BECAUSE with OF MY ANNOUNCING THAT, WHICH MY SON HAS ENCOURAGED ME TO do it, some WOULDN'T HAVE DONE IT to doctors that there may be some type SOME RESPONSES HAVE COME FROM DOCTORS THAT SUGGEST THERE MAY BE SOME surgery that might add some months to my life.

NO SURGERY, THAT MAY ADD SOME MONTHS TO MY LIFE.

SO I AM LOOKING INTO THAT.

I'M NOT BUT IT'S BEEN A WONDERFUL PARTY AND and it is time to go home and go to bed.

Christiane: TO BED.

wonderful party is what you did with your life.

WELL, PART OF THE WONDERFUL PARTY IS WHAT YOU DID WITH YOUR whistleblowers.

YOU ARE THE KING OF WHISTLE >> DOES THAT RESONATE WITH YOU?

AND IS THAT A GREAT THING?

>> I DON'T THINK WE HAVE It is a rather anarchic group.

Christiane: IT'S A RATHER ANARCHIC GROUP, ACTUALLY.

THE LEAD WHISTLEBLOWER OF ALL TIME.

>> ISAIAH STONE, A JOURNALIST, USED TO Nothing they say is to be believed.

AND NOTHING BELIEVED.

AND THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT EVERYTHING THEY SAY IS A LIE.

IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT ANYTHING THEY SAY COULD BE A LIE AND NOT THE LAST WORD.

YOU HAVE TO LOOK FOR OTHER Pyour common sense.

AGAINST YOUR COMMON SENSE.

AND BY THE WAY, ONE THING I'VE LEARNED IN MY LONG LIFE IS life is if POLICY it probably is.

Christiane: Let's talk about the policy that looks IS.

>> WELL, LET'S TALK ABOUT THE Before I get POLICY THAT LOOKED CRAZY TO YOU.

BUT BEFORE I GET INTO the Pentagon OF THE PENTAGON PAPERS LET US JUST REMEM not some SOME lout.

You are YOU WERE a Harvard educated former Defense Department official.

A HARVARD-EDUCATED FORMER DEFENSE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL.

YOU SERVED WITH THE STATE DEPARTMENT IN VIETNAM.

SO FOR YOU WHAT WAS then MOMENT BACK THEN THAT MADE YOU NEED TO PUT THIS OUT INTO this out to the public?

>> The wrongdoing I PUBLIC?

>> LIKE NEARLY ALL WHISTLEBLOWERS THE known to virtually SAW INSIDE WAS colleagues.

Humans turn out to VIRTUALLY ALL OF MY COLLEAGUES.

loathe LOATH TO BE OSTRACIZED FROM their group.

To lose status or break the rules BREAK THE RULES OF That AND THAT COULD KEEP About virtually anything.

ABOUT VIRTUALLY ANY WRONGDOING BY THAT GROUP.

A HARM TO OTHERS done.

Something they would not do on their SOMETHING THEY WOULDN'T DO ON THEIR OWN BUT IF THEI call for CALL FOR IT VIRTUES OF obedience that we all regard as THAT WE ALL REGARD AS virtues, courage, patriotism, VIRTUES, COURAGE, very bad causes.

LOY LOY LOYALTY.

ALL CAN BE HARNESSED TO VERY BAD CAUSES.

THAT'S TRUE OF AT LEAST ONE SIDE.

side.

USUALLY BOTH SIDES.

ON We see courage on both sides.

And AND YOU SEE COURAGE ON BOTH SIDES.

AND YET HUMANS to do things with their TO DO THINGS WITH that they know are wrong.

THAT THEY KNOW THEY'RE They can tell themselves maybe it isn't.

THEY CAN TELL THEMSELVES MAYBE I explains all of those.

What do I EXPLAINS ALL THIS AND WHAT DO I KNOW.

IT WAS READING 7,000 PAGES OF TOP SECRET DOCU them all.

PENTAGON PAPERS, I WAS ONE OF THE FEW WHO READ THEM ALL.

I HAD WORKED ON ONE OF THE VOVOM VOLUMES, 1961.

BUT READING THEM ALL I REALI that people inside had known year after PEOPLE INSIDE HAD were AFTER YEAR THAT WHAT WE WERE DOING WAS -- AT THE LEVEL WE doing it, was doomed WERE To result in a stalemate.

FAIL, TO RESULT IN A AN ESCALATING STALEMATE.

BY THE WAY, I WOULD SAY RUSSIA, RUSSIAN ARMED FORCES have to be filled right this.

DOWN TO CORPORALS WHO SAY THIS These people are not going to NOT GOING Vietnamese were going to give THAN THE VIETNAMESE on their onslaught.

Christiane: TO GIVE UP UNDER OUR ONSLAUGHT.

>> BUT ON THE PENTAGON PAPERS about the U.S. aim.

THERE'S A QUOTE HERE ABOUT THE U.S.

AIM.

Just so SO JUST SO THE later remember, a government YEARS LATER REMEMBER, A GOVERNMENT DOCUMENT NAMED ACTION FOR SOUTH VIETNAM Vietnam DATED MARCH 10th, says DEFINES U.S.

AIMS AS FOLLOWS.

70% TO AVOID A HUMILIATING DEFEAT.

20% TO KEEP THE SVN, THE SOUTH VIETNAMESE TERRITORY, FROM CHINESE HANDS.

AND 10% TO PERMIT THE PEOPLE OF SVN, SOUTH VIETNAM, TO BETTER, FREER WAY OF LIFE.

SO THERE IT IS IN BLACK AND WHITE.

DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN YOU FIRST READ THAT?

>> I REMEMBER WHEN IT WAS BEING WRITTEN BY MY BOSS, MY IMMEDIATE BOSS, JOHN T. McNAUGHTON, WHO'S A FORMER PROFESSOR AT THE HARVARD LAW respected.

I RESPECTED VERY MUCH.

WORKED WITH HIM EVERY DAY.

I WAS HIS SPECIAL ASSISTANT.

I WAS AT THE SERVANT TS-18.

I WOULD SIT IN HIS OFFICE WHILE HE LIED TO REPORTERS effectively.

EFFECTIVELY.

I'VE TOLD REPORTERS HAVING SEEN THAT MANY TIMES IT REALLY WORKS.

I CAN TELL YOU THAT PRIVATELY HE DID NOT BELIEVE WE SHOULD BE THERE.

HE SAID WE SHOULD OUT, OUT, OUT IS WHAT HE SAID.

HE WANTED OUT.

EVEN MORE THAN I DID AT A POINT.

>> THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS ONCE YOU LEAKED THIS AND ONCE IT DROPPED AND BECAME PUBLIC YOU when you copy the Pentagon papers PENTAGON PAPERS IN 1969, I reason to think you would be spending the rest EVERY REASON TO THINK I'D BE SPENDING THE REST OF MY behind bars.

BEHIND BARS."

AND YET YOU WENT THROUGH YOU WERE PAINSTAKINGLY COPYING THOUSANDS OF PAGES, TO THE "TIMES" AND TO THE "WASHINGTON POST."

HOW DID YOU WEIGH benefit.

The freedom.

BENEFIT, THE RISKS TO YOUR FREEDOM AND SAFETY VERSUS YOUR MISSION AND WHAT YOU BELIEVED WAS AN ACT OF PATRIOTISM?

>> WE WERE IN A WAR THAT WE SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN IN.

BUT WE WERE IN A WAR not of been in.

PEOPLE WERE DYING EVERY DAY.

BY HUNDREDS.

SO THE REAL COMPARISON I SAW WAS BETWEEN RISK TO MYSELF, WHICH SEEMED JUST MINUSCULE COMPARED TO THE RISK THAT AMERICAN SOLDIERS WERE INFLICTING ON VIETNAMESE AND WERE TAKING AT THAT TIME.

SO THAT DIDN'T SEEM A HARD CHOICE TO MAKE, ACTUALLY.

BUT IN CIVILIAN LIFE IT SEEMS RARE TO SEE IT.

PEOPLE RISKING THEIR CAREERS, THEIR ACCESS AS I SAY, THEIR JOBS, THEIR FAMILIES BY NOT WANTING TO DO IT.

NO MATTER HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE AT STAKE.

FOR EXAMPLE, IN THIS WAR WE'RE IN RIGHT NOW, UNLIKE SOME OF THE CRISES WE'VE HAD IN THE LAST 20 YEARS, THE RISK OF NUCLEAR WAR THREATENS EVERYONE IN THE WORLD AND EVERYONE HAS A STAKE NOW IN AVERTING NUCLEAR WAR, WHICH IS THREATENED AT THIS POINT BY PUTIN IN A WAY THAT WE HAVEN'T SEEN SINCE KHRUSHCHEV WAS IN CUBA AND THE CUBAN MISSILE CRISIS.

WHICH I PARTICIPATED IN.

THAT'S 60 YEARS AGO.

SO I'M BACK WHERE I WAS IN '62 IN A WAY.

THE WORLD HAS NOT GOTTEN LESS DANGEROUS.

AND YET I DON'T -- YOU DON'T SEE PEOPLE TELLING THE TRUTH ON EITHER SIDE THAT MIGHT ACTUALLY SAVE A WAR'S WORTH OF LIVES.

>> I WANT TO NOW SHIFT BACK TO THE PENTAGON PAPERS BECAUSE WE TALKED JUST A MOMENT AGO ABOUT YOU MADE A DECISION THAT YOU WERE GOING TO, YOU KNOW, ASSESS THE RISK AND DO WHAT YOU DID.

BUT I'M ACTUALLY FASCINATE BECAUSE DID YOU BRING YOUR SON ALONG WHILE YOU PHOTOCOPIED ALL THOSE PAPERS?

>> ON TWO OCCASIONS ACTUALLY FOR HIM AND ONCE INADVERTENTLY MORE OR LESS MY DAUGHTER.

HE WAS 13.

SHE WAS 10.

MY 13-YEAR-OLD WAS WORKING THE XEROX MACHINE AT THAT MOMENT.

I WAS COLLATING.

AND MY DAUGHTER, WHO WAS THEN 10, WAS CUTTING "TOP SECRET" OFF THE TOPS AND BOTTOMS OF THE PAGES WITH A SCISSORS.

BUT I HADN'T MEANT TO BRING HER IN.

SHE DIDN'T WANT TO BE LEFT DOWN IN THE SCAR.

BUT MY SON WAS 13, AND I'D GOTTEN HIM TO READ THEREAU'S ESSAY ON CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE TO UNDERSTAND THE NEED TO SAY NO TO POLITICAL AUTHORITY.

AND I WANTED HIM TO SEE THAT WHAT I WAS DOING WAS STRAIGHTFORWARD.

HE WOULD BE TOLD I WAS CRAZY, THAT I'D GONE CRAZY OR I WAS A TRAITOR ACTING IN SOME DESPERATE WAY.

I WANTED HIM TO SEE IN A BUSINESS-LIKE WAY.

THIS IS ONE, TWO DAYS OUT OF 100.

I WAS DOING THIS STRAIGHTFORWARD BECAUSE I THOUGHT IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

AND I WANTED TO PLANT THE ISSUE IN BOTH OF THEIR MINDS, WHERE IT DID TAKE HOLD THAT THERE WERE TIMES WHERE THEY MIGHT HAVE TO EXPOSE THEMSELVES TO DANGER OR EVEN PRISON TO DO THE RIGHT THING AND TO SAVE OTHER PEOPLE'S LIVES.

AND THEIR LIVES HAVE BOTH EXHIBITED THAT LESSON.

IT TOOK HOLD.

EVEN THOUGH IT CAUSED PROBLEMS FOR THEM AT HOME.

>> WHAT AN INCREDIBLE LEGACY.

WHAT AN AMAZING THING YOU DID FOR THEM THEN.

BUT OF COURSE YOU WERE TREATED AS A TRAITOR BY THE WHITE HOUSE AND SPECIFICALLY THE ADMINISTRATION OF RICHARD NIXON BECAUSE THESE WERE LEAKED DURING HIS FIRST TERM AND THEN IN JUNE OF THAT YEAR, '71, NIXON THE PRESIDENT TALKED ABOUT YOU SPECIFICALLY AND THIS CASE WITH HIS ATTORNEY GENERAL.

JUST TAKE A LISTEN.

>> I JUST SAY THAT WE'VE GOT TO KEEP OUR EYE ON THE THE MAIN BALL'S ELLSBERG.

WE'VE GOT TO GET THIS SON OF A BITCH.

WE CAN'T BE IN A POSITION OF EVER ALLOWING JUST BECAUSE SOME GUY'S GOING TO BE A MARTYR, OF ALLOWING A FELLOW TO GET AWAY WITH THIS KIND OF WHOLESALE THIEVERY OR OTHERWISE IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN ALL OVER THE GOVERNMENT.

DON'T YOU AGREE?

>> I'M SURE YOU'VE HEARD IT MANY TIMES.

THAT'S THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

WERE YOU AWARE THAT THERE WAS A THREAT?

>> NO.

I WASN'T AT THE TIME REALLY AWARE.

BUT I DID KNOW THAT HE HAD A SECRET THAT I FEARED THANKS TO FORMER AIDE TO KISSINGER, MY FRIEND MORT HALPERIN, WHO HAD INFORMED ME WHAT THE PUBLIC HAD BEEN LED TO BELIEVE, HE WAS MAKING DEMANDS AND THREATS AND THE DEMANDS OF THE NORTH VIETNAMESE GETTING OUT OF -- WHAT THEY REGARDED AS THE SOUTHERN PART OF THEIR OWN COUNTRY.

AND DEMANDS THAT THEY GET OUT, WHICH THEY NEVER DID.

THEY NEVER GOT OUT.

AND HE WAS THREATENING TO USE NUCLEAR WEAPONS IF THEY DIDN'T.

AND HE THOUGHT THAT THREAT WOULD WORK.

I DIDN'T THINK IT WOULD WORK.

SO IN RETROSPECT WHEN WE KNOW WHAT HE WAS DOING, HE WAS TRYING TO SHUT ME UP BECAUSE HE FEARED THAT I HAD PLANS -- I HAD DOCUMENTS TO DOCUMENT WHAT I WAS SAYING ABOUT HIS ADMINISTRATION.

THE PENTAGON PAPERS ENDED, AND A FRIEND OF MINE, ROGER MORRIS, HAD SEEN THE TARGET FOLDERS FOR NUCLEAR ATTACKS IN NORTH VIETNAM.

I DIDN'T HAVE THAT BECAUSE NONE OF THOSE AIDES WHO KNEW THAT DID -- EVEN WHEN THEY RESIGNED LATER OVER CAMBODIA.

AS USUAL THEY DIDN'T TAKE DOCUMENTS.

AND ACTUALLY AS MORRIS SAID TO ME, IT WAS THE GREATEST SHAME AND REGRET OF HIS LIFE THAT HE SAID WE SHOULD HAVE THROWN OPEN THE SAFES AND SCREAMED BLOODY MURDER BECAUSE THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT IT WAS.

THAT'S WHAT HE TOLD ME.

I KEPT MY SILENCE TOO OVER PREVIOUS YEARS, YEAR AFTER YEAR.

AND LIKE MOST WHISTLEBLOWERS I'D SEEN THINGS THAT I LATER THOUGHT I SHOULD HAVE TOLD THE TRUTH, I SHOULD HAVE TOLD THE PUBLIC, IT WOULD HAVE SAVED LIVES.

>> YOU WERE SORT OF SOMEHOW KIND OF DRAGGED INTO IN A WAY INTO THE WHOLE WATERGATE THING.

IN '71 A GROUP OF NIXON AIDES BROKE INTO YOUR PSYCHIATRIST'S OFFICE HOPING TO STEAL RECORDS THAT THEY COULD THEN DISCREDIT YOU WITH.

THAT FAILED.

BUT SEVERAL MONTHS LATER THE SAME CREW, IT WAS E. HOWARD HUNT, G. GORDON LIDDY, THEY BROKE INTO THE DNC OBVIOUSLY AT THE WATERGATE AND IT WAS YOUR PSYCHIATRIST'S BREAK-IN THAT WAS POTENTIALLY THE FIRST DOMINO TO FALL IN THE WATERGATE SCANDAL THAT THEN BROUGHT NIXON DOWN.

HOW DO YOU THINK AND ASSESS THAT SORT OF ACCIDENT OF HISTORY, IF YOU LIKE, AND YOUR CONNECTION WITH WATERGATE?

>> WELL, LET ME CORRECT YOU IF I MAY ON ONE VERY GENERAL MISUNDERSTANDING.

IT'S ALMOST ALWAYS DESCRIBED THAT THEY WERE IN THERE TO GET INFORMATION.

EVEN THE PSYCHIATRIST'S OFFICE.

TO SEE THAT I HAD ADMITTED TO A PSYCHIATRIST THINGS THAT I DIDN'T WANT KNOWN, MAYBE EVEN TO MY FAMILY OR TO THE WORLD.

THAT WAS TO DISCREDIT ME.

STRICTLY SPEAKING, I WAS ALREADY FACING 12 FELONY COUNTS.

115 YEARS POSSIBLE.

THAT WAS FAIRLY DISCREDITING IN THE EYES OF MOST PEOPLE.

BUT THE POINT, THEY WANTED INFORMATION WITH WHICH TO BLACKMAIL ME, NOT TO PUT IT OUT BUT TO THREATEN ME WITH PUTTING IT OUT SO THAT I WOULD NOT PUT OUT WHAT I WAS SAYING AND WHAT I MIGHT BE ABLE TO PROVE.

LATER WHEN THAT DIDN'T WORK TO KEEP ME QUIET THEY SENT THE SAME PEOPLE TO INCAPACITATE ME TOTALLY ON THE STEPS OF THE CAPITOL, MAY 3rd, 1972.

>> WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT, INCAPACITATE YOU?

>> WELL, THOSE ARE THE WORDS USED BY THE SPECIAL PROSECUTOR, PART OF THE WATERGATE TEAM, WILLIAM MERRILL, THE SPECIAL PROSECUTOR.

AND I SAID WHAT DOES THAT MEAN, INCAPACITATE ME TOTALLY?

KILL ME?

AND HE SAID THE WORDS WERE TO INCAPACITATE YOU TOTALLY.

BUT YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND, HE SAID, THESE GUYS WHO ALL WORKED FOR THE CIA PREVIOUSLY, BAY OF PIGS AND OTHER THINGS, NEVER USED THE WORD "KILL."

THEY SAY NEUTRALIZE, WITH EXTREME PREJUDICE, YOU KNOW, VARIOUS EUPHEMISMS.

HE SAID HE HAD NO DOUBT THE INTENT WAS TO KILL ME.

ACTUALLY, I DO DOUBT THAT.

I THINK THEY WANTED TO SHUT ME UP.

>> CAN I ASK YOU SOMETHING?

BECAUSE SPEAKING TO YOU AND OBVIOUSLY READING ALL ABOUT YOU IN THE HISTORY, DO YOU FEEL AT 92 NOW AND WITH YOUR ILLNESS THAT YOU'VE GONE PUBLIC WITH THAT YOU'VE ACCOMPLISHED YOUR GOALS, THAT YOU'VE -- IT'S BEEN A LIFE WELL LIVED AND YOU HAVE DONE SOMETHING MORE THAN MAYBE YOU COULD EVER HAVE IMAGINED IN TERMS OF EFFECTIVENESS?

>> LOOK, I WAS PART OF A MOVEMENT THAT DID -- THE ANTIAN ANTI-VIETNAM, THE ANTI-INTERVENTION MOVEMENT.

THAT DID CONTRIBUTE.

THANKS TO THE UNFORESEEABLE ACTIONS OF MULTITUDES OF PEOPLE DID ACTUALLY SHORTEN THE WAR.

IT WAS A SUCCESS.

THE MILLIONS THAT DIED IN VIETNAM, 58,000 IN THIS COUNTRY, ARE A TESTAMENT TO UNSUCCESS YEAR AFTER YEAR.

BUT EVENTUALLY IT SHOWED TRUTH TELLING, COMMITTED ACTION, NON-VIOLENT ACTION.

BUT THE NON-VIOLENT ACTIONS DID ACTUALLY SUCCEED WITH NO GUARANTEE.

AND THAT'S THE RESULT.

I WAS PART OF THAT.

I WAS PART OF AN ANTI-NUCLEAR MOVEMENT THAT KEPT THINGS FROM BEING WORSE THAN THEY ARE.

THEY KEPT THEIR NUCLEAR THREATS FROM BEING JUST THREATS.

THERE WAS NO TABOO AGAINST THREATS.

BUT THE TRIGGER HASN'T BEEN PULLED YET.

IT WAS PART OF THAT MOVEMENT.

>> WE REALLY, REALLY PRAPPRECIA IT.

DANIEL ELLSBERG, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR GIVING US THE BENEFIT OF SO MUCH WISDOM AND SO MUCH ACTIVISM.

WE REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

AND WE WISH YOU REALLY ALL THE VERY BEST.

>> WELL, AND I WISH THAT YOUNG PEOPLE LIKE GRETA THUNBERG NOW WHO ARE LEADING YOUNG PEOPLE AGAINST CLIMATE, IT'S IN THEIR HANDS.

AND AS VIETNAM SHOWS, IT CAN WORK.

>> FANTASTIC.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU FOR THE OPPORTUNITY.

>> PEACE SALS IS ALWAYS ON THE V MIND OF MY NEXT GUEST.

IN FACT, "PEACE TRAIN" IS ONE OF HIS BEST NOENL ANTHEMS.

HE IS THE BRITISH SINGER SONGWRITER YUSUF CAT STEVENS.

AND AT 75 YEARS OLD HE'S ON A BEST A FAREWELL TOUR HIMSELF.

HIS NEW ALBUM "KING OF A LAND" IS ABOUT THE BEAUTY AND SIMPLICITY OF CHILDHOOD IN AN ERA OF SUCH DISCORD AND UPHEAVAL.

HERE'S A CLIP.

♪ I'LL MAKE THE WORLD GIVE UP ♪ UNTIL IT LEADS ME TO THE LAND OF LOVE ♪ ♪ I'LL GO ANY LENGTH TO SEE ♪ UNDER THE COLISEUM ♪ I WILL ♪ LA, LA, LA, LA >> WHEN HE CAME INTO OUR STUDIO AHEAD OF THE ALBUM'S RELEASE WE TALKED ABOUT WHAT'S INSPIRED HIM ALL THESE DECADES AND WINNING A LEGEND SPOT AT THE WORLD FAMOUS GLASTONBURY MUSIC FESTIVAL.

THAT'S THIS SUMMER.

>> YUSUF CAT STEVENS, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> I'VE BEEN LISTENING TO YOU SINCE I WAS A TEENAGER.

NOW "KING OF A LAND," YOUR LATEST ALBUM.

YOU HAVE WRITTEN, "THIS NEW RECORD IS A CULMINATION OF VERY CLEARLY DEFINED OUTCOMES OF WHERE I'VE BEEN AND WHERE I AM."

SO FIRST, WHERE ARE YOU?

>> IN THIS TIME AND PLACE RIGHT NOW, I'M 75 COMING UP.

AND SO I'VE KIND OF LIVED A LOT AND I'VE ACHIEVED MANY OF MY DREAMS.

AND THERE WERE SOME NIGHTMARES ALONG THE WAY.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME I'VE LIVED.

I'VE HAD MORE LIVES THAN QUITE A LOT OF PEOPLE, A LOT OF POP STARS.

BECAUSE I'VE BEEN -- I CAME OUT OF THE BUSINESS AS WELL.

AND THAT WAS LIKE I'VE GOT A LIFE.

AND I CAME BACK AGAIN.

SO I'VE BEEN THERE.

I'VE DONE THAT.

THAT'S KIND OF WHERE I AM.

>> SO TELL ME THE NIGHTMARE.

>> THE NIGHTMARE FOR ME BEGAN REALLY -- BECAUSE I WAS AN IMMIGRANT.

YOU KNOW, MY FATHER WAS FROM S CYPRUS.

MOTHER FROM SWEDEN.

WHERE DID I FIT?

AND YOU KNOW, AT SCHOOL THEY CAN BE A LITTLE BIT CRUEL.

>> DEFINITELY.

>> SO I HAD TO FIND MY PLACE.

AND I THINK ART WAS THE THING WHICH KIND OF I THINK ELEVATED ME TO A STATUS WHERE I COULD BE ACCEPTED.

>> SO THIS NEW ALBUM, IT'S BEEN DESCRIBED AS TAKING US BACK TO THAT MOMENT OF CHILDHOOD, THE HAPPY TIMES.

WAS THAT YOUR INTENTION?

BECAUSE IT'S AN ALBUM THAT FALLS AT A TIME WHERE WE ARE -- YOU JUST HAVE TO OPEN YOUR EYES AND WE'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF SUCH DISCORD AND UPHEAVAL AND ALL OF THAT.

>> TRUE.

AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHY WE DO NEED THESE OPPORTUNITIES -- THESE MOMENTS TO REFLECT ON SOME OF THE GOOD THINGS.

AND MUSIC MAKES US FEEL GOOD.

THERE'S TIMES WHEN YES, YOU'RE DEPRESSED.

AND YES, THE SONG MAKES YOU FEEL MELANCHOLY.

BUT IT HELPS YOU.

IT GIVES YOU A REFERENCE POINT, MAYBE GOING BACK TO SOME OTHER TIME WHERE YOU WERE KIND OF MORE SAFE AND IN A BETTER SPACE.

SO MUSIC CAN DEFINITELY HELP.

BUT OF COURSE IT CAN'T DO THE FULL JOB.

IT CAN ONLY PROMISE.

IT CAN'T FULFILL THE PROMISE.

>> I DO WANT TO PLAY A CLIP FROM ONE OF THE SONGS, A SONG WE'RE ALLOWED TO USE.

AND THIS IS THE SONG "TAKE THE WORLD APART."

♪ I'LL TAKE THE WORLD APART ♪ TO FIND A PLACE FOR A PEACEFUL HEART ♪ ♪ I KNOW ♪ I'VE GOT TO FIND IT ♪ ALTHOUGH I'LL BREAK DOWN THE WALLS OF CHINA ♪ ♪ I WILL ♪ I'LL TAKE THE WORLD APART ♪ DOO, DOO, DOO, DOO, DOO, DOO, DOO ♪ >> JUST THAT LAST IMAGE, ALMOST A LITTLE PRINCE-ESQUE.

WHY IS IT THE LAST AND WHAT DO YOU MEAN TAKE THE WORLD APART?

WHAT DOES THIS SONG MEAN TO YOU?

>> WELL, IT'S THE LAST TRACK BECAUSE IT'S AN UPTURN.

AND NEIGHBOR THE TRACK BEFORE IT IS A LITTLE BIT DEEP BUT I WANTED PEOPLE TO COME AWAY AFTER THE ALBUM WITH AN UP, YOU KNOW, FEELING GOOD.

AND OPTIMISTIC.

AND THAT'S WHY -- AND FOR ME PEACE IS, YOU KNOW, IT'S THE FIRST STOP AND IT'S THE LAST STOP.

WHATEVER HAPPENS IN BETWEEN, THAT'S LIFE.

BUT PEACE IS THE OBJECTIVE.

AND WE EMPHASIZED THAT BY MAKING IT THE LAST TRACK.

>> YOUR FAMOUS EUPHORIC "PEACE TRAIN."

♪ THE PEACE TRAIN HOLY ROLLING ♪ EVERYONE JUMP ON THE PEACE TRAIN ♪ ♪ COME ON, COME ON, COME ON ♪ COME ON THE PEACE TRAIN ARE YOU DISAPPOINTED IN ALL THE YEARS THAT HAVE TRANSPIRED SINCE THAT WE DON'T HAVE A PEACE TRAIN OR PEACE?

>> WELL, PEACE HAS MANY ASPECTS.

I DO NOT THINK IT'S JUST -- THERE'S A PHYSICAL ASPECT.

FOR INSTANCE, IF SOMEBODY'S STARVING, HOW CAN YOU, YOU KNOW, EXPECT THEM TO FIND PEACE.

THEY WANT TO FEED THEIR CHILDREN.

THEY WANT TO FEED THEMSELVES.

THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WHY WE STARTED PEACE TRAIN, WHICH HAS TURNED INTO A KIND OF A CHARITY CONCENTRATED ON FEEDING PEOPLE.

BUT THERE'S MORE PEACE.

IT'S NOT ALSO JUST THE PHYSICAL.

THERE'S THE SAYING JESUS, YOU KNOW, I THINK WE SHOULD ALL KNOW IT, THAT MAN DOES NOT LIVE BY BREAD ALONE.

WE ARE SPIRITS.

AND FOR THAT REASON ALSO OUR SPIRITS NEED SOME KIND OF PEACE.

WE NEED TO FIND OUT -- WE NEED TO FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH WHO WE ARE.

AND COMFORTABLE WITH OUR NEIGHBORS TOO.

THERE'S SO MUCH THAT CAN CREATE PEACE BUT SEEMS TO BE WORKING AGAINST IT.

>> INDEED.

I THINK ONE OF YOUR EITHER COLLEAGUES OR CERTAINLY PEOPLE YOU ADMIRED WAS GEORGE HARRISON OF THE BEATLES.

HE WAS INCREDIBLY SPIRITUAL.

I THINK YOU DID THE FINAL PRODUCTION, YOU FINISHED THE ALBUM AT HIS HOME SLASH STUDIO HERE IN ENGLAND.

>> CORRECT.

WE WERE ALLOWED TO USE THE DARK HORSE STUDIO IN HENLEY ON THAMES WHICH IS WHERE HIS HOUSE, HIS MANSION IS.

AND HIS SON WAS THE FACILITATOR.

IT WAS FANTASTIC.

BECAUSE YOU KNOW, FOR ME THE BEATLES PERSONIFIED THE WAY FORWARD, THE WAY IN WHICH WE COULD DEFINE A NEW WORLD, EVEN IF IT WAS ONLY THROUGH MUSIC, LYRICS FOR THAT TIME.

BUT WE BELIEVED IN IT.

BUT THERE WAS MORE TO GEORGE THAN JUST THE SONGS.

HE WAS ACTUALLY LOOK ING.

AND HE HELPED US TO TURN EAST.

SO THEREFORE, HE WAS REALLY AN INSPIRED PERSON FOR ME AND ESPECIALLY AT THE TIME WHEN I WAS SICK AND I WAS IN BED WITH TUBERCULOSIS.

I'D HAD MY FIRST EXPOSURE TO FAME AND EVERYTHING THAT CAME ALONG WITH IT.

IT WAS, AGAIN, PART OF THE NIGHTMARES WHICH I WAS REFERRING TO BEFORE.

AND THEN IF I NEEDED SOMETHING WHEN I'M LYING ON THE BED, YOU KNOW, WHERE AM I GOING TO END UP?

WHEN ALL THIS DISAPPEARS.

WHEN I DROP OFF THE PLANET.

AND THAT'S WHERE GEORGE WAS ALREADY EXPERIMENTING OR, YOU KNOW, SEEKING WAYS TO FIND THE LIGHT THROUGH THE MAHARISHI AND ALL THAT.

BUT THAT WAS INSPIRING FOR ME.

>> AND ACTUALLY YOU'VE SAID GEORGE WAS ONE OF THE FIRST TO PUT A CHARITY CONCERT ON FOR THE POOR.

AT THE TIME MILLIONS OF BANGLADESHIS WERE FLEEING FROM CONFLICT, BECOMING REFUGEES.

IT WAS A BRAVE THING TO DO AND AGAINST ALL ESTABLISHMENT RULES.

"I'M HAPPY TO SING ONE OF HIS SONGS ESPECIALLY AS IT REPRESENTS RETURN OF LIGHT AND HOPE TO A SERIOUSLY DARK WORLD."

WE'LL GET TO THE SONG YOU RECORDED IN HONOR OF HIS 80th BIRTHDAY.

BUT THIS IS SO RELEVANT NOW WITH THIS BROUHAHA ABOUT REFUGEES AND THE OTHER AND ASYLUM AND PEOPLE WHO NEED, YOU KNOW, US TO BE KIND.

>> YEAH.

IT'S OBVIOUS.

AND THEN WHEN THEY START TO MOVE, WHICH IS THE NATURE OF HUMAN BEINGS WHEN THEY'RE NOT HAPPY WHERE THEY ARE NOW THEY GO SOMEWHERE ELSE.

AND THEN, YOU KNOW, YOU CLOSE THE DOOR.

EVEN THOUGH YOU'VE BEEN ADVERTISING IT AS BEING THE BEST PLACE IN THE WORLD TO BE.

NOT REALLY FAIR, IS IT?

THAT'S THE ONE SONG I REALLY THEY'LL PERSONIFIES THE OPTIMISM THAT WE NEED RIGHT NOW.

♪ IT'S BEEN A LONG COLD LONELY WINTER ♪ ♪ ♪ LITTLE DARLING ♪ IT FEELS LIKE YEARS SINCE IT'S BEEN HERE ♪ ♪ HERE COMES THE SUN ♪ HERE'S COMES THE SUN ♪ AND I SAY ♪ IT'S ALL RIGHT >> WE CAN HEAR YOU PLAYING GUITAR.

I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THERE'S PIANO IN THERE.

BUT YOU TAUGHT YOURSELF TO PLAY, RIGHT?

YOUR DAD GAVE YOU YOUR FIRST GUITAR.

>> WELL, I BOUGHT IT WITH HIS MONEY.

HE DIDN'T REALLY UNDERSTAND THE POP BUSINESS.

BUT HE THOUGHT, WELL, IF YOU WANT -- >> THEY OWNED A RESTAURANT IN SOHO.

>> WELL, CLOSE TO SOHO.

IT'S ACTUALLY ON CHAUSEBERRY AVENUE.

THAT'S WHERE WE ALL -- EVERYBODY HAD TO WORK IN THE RESTAURANT.

THIS IS MY KIND OF KIND OF FINDING AN ESCAPE FROM WASHING UP AND MOPPING THE FLOOR.

AND YEAH, HE WAS SO -- HE WAS A GENEROUS MAN.

HE GAVE ME MY FIRST EIGHT QUID TO BUY THE GUITAR.

AND THEN BECAME THE JOB OF LEARNING HOW TO DO ALL THESE THINGS.

THE KINKS AND EVERYBODY ELSE.

I COULDN'T DO ANY OF THAT.

SO I STARTED WRITING MY OWN SONGS SO NOBODY KNEW IF I WAS MAKING A MISTAKE.

YOU KNOW.

AND ALSO, MY BROTHER DIDN'T REALLY ADMIRE MY VOICE.

HE THOUGHT I SOUNDED A BIT WEIRD.

BUT THEN CAME BOB DYLAN AND HE SAID, WELL, YOU DON'T HAVE TO SOUND LIKE BOBBY VEE.

THAT OPENED ANOTHER DOOR.

AND EVENTUALLY I FOUND MY CONNECTION THROUGH MIKE HURST, A MAN WHO USED TO PLAY WITH DUSTY SPRINGFIELD.

AND HE THEN OPENED THE NEXT DOOR, WHICH WAS TO GET US A RECORD DEAL.

AND THAT WAS MY FIRST -- MY FIRST SONG WAS THE FIRST HIT.

>> YOU SANG ALL THOSE SONGS, THE HITS, AND YOU MENTIONED YOU LASTED ALL THESE YEARS ALONG WITH VERY FEW OTHERS, THE ROLLING STONES, THE BEATLES.

HOW DO YOU ACCOUNT FOR THE LONGEVITY OF YOUR SONGS AND THEIR POPULARITY?

>> I THINK I WAS ALWAYS VERY, VERY CONCERNED ABOUT BEING TRUE TO THE ART OF MUSIC AND THE ART OF WRITING WORDS.

SO MOST OF MY SONGS WERE KIND OF AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL.

THEY CAME FROM A REAL PLACE.

SO YOU'RE NOT JUST WRITING FOR A HIT.

YOU'RE WRITING BECAUSE OF WHAT'S HAPPENED TO YOU, WHAT YOU'RE HOPING FOR, WHAT YOU'RE DREAMING FOR.

SO THOSE KIND OF ELEMENTS WITHIN THE SONGS I THINK HAVE LASTED.

AND ALSO, I'M IN LOVE WITH MELODY.

I CAN'T DO WITHOUT MELODY.

I CAN'T DO WITHOUT MEANING EITHER.

BUT I'VE GOT TO HAVE MELODY.

>> YOU ARE A MAN OF FAITH.

AND SOME OF THE SONGS ON THIS NEW ALBUM ARE OVERTLY SPIRITUAL AND DEAL WITH A KIND OF A PLETHORA OF DIFFERENT FAITHS.

YOU HAVE "HE IS TRUE," A GOSPEL SONG "HIGHNESS," AND "SON OF MARY," WHICH TELLS THE STORY OF JESUS AND MARY.

WHY?

WHAT'S INTERESTING ABOUT THAT IN ORDER TO SING ABOUT NOW?

>> ABSOLUTELY VITAL THAT WE START TO TALK ABOUT THE AREAS THAT WE ALL AAGREE WITH AND COME TOGETHER WITH.

SO MANY PEOPLE ARE STILL UNFORTUNATELY SADLY IGNORANT ABOUT THE FACT THAT THE KORAN INCLUDES BASICALLY WHAT WE FIND IN THE BIBLE BUT WITH A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT VIEW BUT AT THE SAME TIME IT GIVES ANOTHER CONTEXT TO THE STORY OF JESUS.

AND JESUS IS THE MOST BELOVED, ONE OF THE MOST BELOVED PROPHETS AND MESSAGES OF GOD IN ISLAM.

AND MARY, THERE'S A CHAPTER IN THE KORAN CALLED MARY.

THERE IS NO OTHER CHAPTER WHICH -- THERE IS ONE MORE ABOUT THE NAME OF A FAMILY WHICH IS ALI IMRAN, WHICH IS HER FAMILY.

SO THERE'S TWO REFERENCES TO MARY AND THE FAMILY OF MARY IN THE KORAN.

TITLE HEADINGS OF THE CHAPTERS.

IT'S VERY IMPORTANT BECAUSE, WELL, I MEAN, I GREW UP AS A CHRISTIAN.

YOU KNOW, I WAS GREEK ORTHODOX.

I COULDN'T DO EVERYTHING THEY WERE DOING IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH.

I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THAT THING TASTED LIKE ON THE TONGUE.

I COULDN'T CONFESS.

SO I HAD TO SAVE ALL MY CONFESSIONS TO ANOTHER TIME.

GOD FORGIVE ME.

SO RELIGION AND THE PERSONALITY AND ENIGMA OF JESUS, I MEAN, COME ON.

WE CALL IT 2023.

WHY?

BECAUSE JESUS ARRIVED 2,023 YEARS AGO.

IT'S KIND OF IMPORTANT WE START TO TALK ABOUT THOSE THINGS WE AGREE WITH AND WE ALL, YOU KNOW, LOVE AND CHERISH.

AND THAT IS THE REASON.

>> FAST FORWARD.

YOU ARE GOING TO GLASTONBURY TO JOIN THE LEGENDS IN THEIR PYRAMID STAGE -- REALLY THE SORT OF PREEMINENT SLOT AT GLASTONBURY.

HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT?

>> PETRIFIED.

I ALWAYS WAS PETRIFIED OF GOING ON STAGE.

NOW YOU'VE GOT GLASTONBURY.

IT'S ONE OF THOSE THINGS IT'S AN INSTITUTION WHICH I THINK I HAVE TO DO.

AND I'M DOING IT, GOD WILLING.

AND I FEEL VERY HONORED TO BE GIVEN THE LEGENDS SLOT.

AND I THINK I'M GOING TO MAKE A LOT OF PEOPLE KIND OF -- >> WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU'LL SING?

JUST GIVE ME TWO.

>> THERE'S GOING TO BE "WILD WORLD."

THERE'S GOING TO BE -- AND I THINK A LITTLE MEDLEY.

I WOULD LIKE TO DO A LITTLE MEDLEY OF MY '60s ERA.

SO YOU'LL HAVE "FIRST CUT IS THE DEEPEST."

"HERE COMES MY BABY."

QI V WHICH I DON'T KNOW IF YOU REMEMBER THAT WAS A BIG HIT FOR THE TREMOLOS.

AND MY BIG HIT, "MATTHEW AND SON."

♪ MATTHEW AND SON ♪ THERE'S ALWAYS SOMETHING NEW ♪ YOU NEVER EVER KNEW >> AND LET ME ASK YOU FINALLY ABOUT ANOTHER SONG THAT I THINK IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE IT'S ABOUT A CURRENT SITUATION BETWEEN, YOU KNOW, ISRAEL AND PALESTINE.

IT'S CALLED "THE BOY WHO KNEW HOW TO CLIMB WALLS."

IT TAKES LISTENERS TO THE PREPARTITION PALESTINE.

WHAT ARE YOU SAYING THERE?

>> I'M SAYING OBVIOUSLY THAT WAR IS THE WORST OF ALL FATES TO FIND YOURSELF.

AND WHEN YOU HAVE THESE TWO FRIENDS WHO WERE FRIENDS AND THEN THE WAR CAME AND THE VILLAGE WAS BOMBED AND THEN THE BOY GOES TO LOOK FOR HIS FRIEND AND HE CAN'T FIND THEM AND THEN HE DOES FIND HIM AND HE'S DYING.

I MEAN, IT'S JUST -- IT BRINGS BACK THE HUMAN STORY TO THE LAND OF LIGHT AND SPIRITUALISM.

AND IT'S SO SAD THAT THAT CAN'T BE SEEN, YOU KNOW, IN TODAY'S WORLD.

>> CAT STEVENS, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.

>> THANK YOU.

GOD BLESS.

>> AND THE ALBUM IS COMING OUT IN JUNE.

NOW, FROM HYPERBOLIC HEADLINES ABOUT ITS THREAT TO OUR SURVIVAL TO THE PROMISE OF ITS LIFE-CHANGING TECHNOLOGY, ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE IS HERE AND IT IS HERE TO STAY.

HOW IT'S APPLIED AND MORE IMPORTANTLY HOW IT'S REGULATED ARE THE QUESTIONS BEING NAVIGATED RIGHT NOW.

WALTER ISAACSON SPEAKS TO THE FORMER CEO OF GOOGLE, ERIC SCHMIDT, ABOUT AI'S IMPACT ON LIFE, POLITICS AND WARFARE AND WHAT CAN BE DONE TO KEEP IT UNDER CONTROL.

>> THANK YOU CHRISTIANE.

AND ERIC SCHMIDT, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME, WALTER.

>> YOU KNOW, INDUSTRIAL AND SCIENTIFIC AND TECHNOLOGICAL REVOLUTIONS SOMETIMES SNEAK UP ON US.

I MEAN, NOBODY WOKE UP ONE MORNING IN 1760 AND SAID OH MY GOD, THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION HAS STARTED.

BUT IN THE PAST THREE OR FOUR WEEKS BETWEEN MY STUDENTS AND MYSELF WE SUDDENLY FEEL WE'RE IN A REVOLUTION WHERE ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE HAS BECOME PERSONAL.

IT'S BECOME CHAT BOTS AND THESE THINGS THAT WILL INTEGRATE INTO OUR LIVES.

DO YOU THINK WE'RE ON THE CUSP OF SOME NEW REVOLUTION?

>> I DO.

AND PARTLY -- THIS REVOLUTION'S HAPPENING FASTER THAN I'VE EVER SEEN.

CHATGPT, WHICH WAS RELEASED A FEW MONTHS AGO, NOW HAS MORE THAN 100 MILLION USERS.

IT TOOK GMAIL FIVE YEARS TO GET TO THE SAME POINT.

THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT THE DIFFUSION OF TECHNOLOGY WE INTERACT WITH AT THE HUMAN SCALE THAT'S GOING TO CHANGE OUR WORLD IN A REALLY PROFOUND WAY, MUCH MORE PROFOUND THAN PEOPLE THINK.

>> YOU AND HENRY KISSINGER AND DANIEL HUCKENLOKER HAVE WRITTEN A BOOK "THE AGE OF A.I."

AND PART OF IT IS THERE'S AN EXCERPT IN THE "WALL STREET JOURNAL."

AND IT COMPARES THIS TO THE ADVENT OF THE ENLIGHTENMENT, SOMETHING THAT WAS SPURRED BY A NEW TECHNOLOGY, WHICH IS MOVABLE TYPE PRINTING PRESS THAT'S GUTTENBERG DID.

COMPARE THIS TO THE ENLIGHTENMENT.

>> WE DO NOT HAVE A PHILO PHILOSPHILO PHILOSOPHICAL BASIS FOR INTERACTING WITH AN INTELLIGENCE THAT'S NEAR OUR ABILITY BUT NON-HUMAN.

WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENS TO OUR IDENTITY, HOW WE COMMUNICATE, HOW WE THINK ABOUT OURSELVES.

WHEN THESE THINGS ARRIVE.

NOW, THESE THINGS ARE NOT KILLER ROBOTS, WHICH IS WHAT EVERYBODY ASSUMES THEY'RE BUILDING BECAUSE WE'RE NOT DOING THAT.

WHAT IS ARRIVING IS A KIND OF INTELLIGENCE THAT'S DIFFERENT.

IT COMES TO ANSWERS DIFFERENTLY THAN WE DO.

IT SEEMS TO HAVE HIDDEN UNDERSTANDING AND MEANING THAT WE DON'T UNDERSTAND TODAY.

IT DISCOVERS THINGS THAT WE'VE NEVER KNOWN.

WE DON'T KNOW HOW FAR THIS GOES.

BUT THE BIGGEST ISSUE IS THAT AS WE'VE MADE THESE THINGS BIGGER AND BIGGER THEY KEEP EMERGING WITH NEW CAPABILITIES.

WE HAVE NOT FIGURED OUT HOW POWERFUL THIS TECHNOLOGY'S GOING TO BE YET.

>> WE'VE HAD AI FOR, YOU KNOW, 20 YEARS NOW THAT'S BEEN PART OF OUR TECHNOLOGY.

BUT NOW IT'S BECOMING VERY PERSONAL.

IT'S THINGS WE DO EVERY DAY.

A NORMAL PERSON LIKE MYSELF, WHETHER I'M DOING SEARCH OR I'M WRITING AN E-MAIL OR I'M PREPARING A LECTURE AT TULANE, SUDDENLY THESE ARE TOOLS -- IT'S ALMOST LIKE WHEN THE COMPUTER WENT FROM BEING IN A REALLY BIG ROOM AND A RESEARCH INSTITUTE AND SUDDENLY YOU HAVE IT IN THE 1970s, IT ARRIVED AT A PERSONAL COMPUTER.

TELL ME ABOUT THIS TRANSFORMATION OF A.I.

TO BEING SOMETHING PERSONAL.

>> THE SYSTEMS ARE ORGANIZED TO ESSENTIALLY ENGAGE YOU MORE.

AND THE REASON THEY WANT TO ENGAGE YOU MORE IS IF YOU ENGAGE MORE, THEY USE IT MORE, THEY MAKE MORE MONEY.

SO WHAT THEY DO IS THEY LEARN WHAT YOUR PREFERENCES ARE.

USING VARIOUS ALGORITHMS.

SO THEY SAY AH, WALTER LIKES THIS AND ERIC LIKES THAT AND SO FORTH.

AND THEY BUILD A PROFILE.

NOW, THAT PROFILE IS NOT A DOSSIER AND IT'S NOT WRITTEN IN ENGLISH AND SO FORTH.

BUT IT'S A PRETTY GOOD APPROXIMATION OF WHAT YOU LIKE AND WHAT YOU THINK.

AND THEN THE ALGORITHMS KNOW HOW TO MAKE YOU MORE ENGAGED.

BY THE WAY, THE BEST WAY TO GET YOU MORE ENGAGED IS TO MAKE YOU MORE OUTRAGED.

AND THE BEST WAY TO MAKE YOU MORE OUTRAGED, JUST USE MORE INFLAMMATORY LANGUAGE AND SO FORTH.

>> LET'S STOP RIGHT THERE BECAUSE THAT MEANS THIS COULD DESTROY OUR POLITICS.

>> WELL, IT WILL.

AND THE REASON IT'S GOING TO IS NOT ONLY WILL THE OPPONENTS OF A POLITICAL FIGURE PRODUCE VIDEOS THAT ARE FALSE AND HARMFUL BUT ALSO THE MESSAGING'S GOING TO GET MORE AND MORE OUTRAGEOUS.

AND YOU CAN GET A SITUATION, AND I CALL THIS THE DUAL EVIL PROBLEM.

LET'S SAY THAT YOU OR I WAS A TRULY HORRIFIC PERSON, WHICH WE'RE NOT, SOMEBODY WHO WAS A RACIST OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, AND WE HAVE THE MODEL GENERATE A RACE INVOLVEMENT VIDEO.

AND THE OTHER ONE IS A SOCIOPATHIC SOCIAL MEDIA PERSON WHO DOESN'T CARE ABOUT THE QUALITY AND ONLY WANTS TO MAKE IT WORSE.

SO WHAT HAPPENS IS MY COMPUTER DOES A RACIST VIDEO ON MY BEHALF AND DOES A GOOD JOB AND YOUR COMPUTER STICHL KNOWING IT'S GOING TO GET EVEN MORE REVENUE IF IT'S OUTRAGEOUS MAKES IT WORSE.

YOU SEE HOW IT GOES ONE WAY.

NOW, LET'S SAY THAT YOU AND I WERE SAINTS IN THE SENSE THAT I DID SOMETHING SAINTLY WHEN YOU WERE THE WORLD'S BEST SOCIAL MEDIA PERSON.

YOU WOULD TAKE MY SAINTLY THING AND MAKE IT MORE SAINTLY.

SO YOU SEE HOW IT PUSHES TO THE SIDES.

AND MY THEORY ABOUT LIFE TODAY IS THE REASON EVERYONE'S UPSET IS BECAUSE THE SOCIAL MEDIA IS WORKING TO MAKE US UPSET.

>> SO THE ALGORITHMS OF SOCIAL MEDIA, TWITTER, FACEBOOK, ET CETERA, TRY TO GET ENGAGEMENT BY GETTING ENRAGEMENT.

AND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS THAT ADDED TO THIS WILL BE THESE NEW A.I.

SYSTEMS THAT WILL MAKE THIS EVEN WORSE.

IS THAT RIGHT?

>> WE'VE GOT A SITUATION WHERE WE HAVE MEGAPHONES OF PEOPLE WE FRANKLY DON'T WANT TO HEAR ABOUT.

AND THEY'RE GOING TO FIND AN AUDIENCE AND THEY'RE GOING TO FIND A BIG AUDIENCE BECAUSE THEY'RE GOING TO DO CRAZY STUFF.

THAT'S NOT OKAY IN MY VIEW IN A DEMOCRACY.

DEMOCRACIES ARE AT SOME LEVEL ABOUT REASONED DEBATE.

AND THESE SYSTEMS WILL DRIVE AGAINST THAT.

I DON'T SEE A SOLUTION TODAY FROM IN EXCEPT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO REGULATE SOME OF IT.

FOR EXAMPLE, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO KNOW WHO'S ON THE PLATFORM TO HOLD THEM RESPONSIBLE FOR IF THEY DO SOMETHING REALLY OUTRAGEOUS OR ILLEGAL.

AND WE'RE ALSO GOING TO HAVE TO KNOW WHERE THE CONTENT CAME FROM.

WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO KNOW IF IT WAS AUTHENTIC OR IF IT WAS BOOSTED AND CHANGED IN SOME WAY.

AND WE'RE ALSO GOING TO HAVE TO KNOW HOW THE PLATFORM MAKES ITS OWN DECISIONS.

ALL OF THOSE ARE SENSIBLE IMPROVEMENTS SO WE CAN UNDERSTAND HOW WE'RE BEING FETE THIS INFORMATION.

>> SO WHAT IS GOING TO DETERMINE THESE GUARDRAILS AND HOW ARE WE GOING TO GET THEM IN PLACE INTERNATIONALLY?

>> WELL, IN EUROPE IT'S ALREADY PART OF THE LEGISLATION.

AND SOME FORM OF AGREEMENT IN AMERICA BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT AND THE INDUSTRY IS GOING TO BE REQUIRED.

I DON'T THINK WE NEED TO GET RID OF FREE SPEECH OR ANY OF THOSE THINGS ALTHOUGH THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO'VE PROPOSED WE CAN'T EVEN HAVE FREE SPEECH.

FROM MY PERSPECTIVE THE TECHNOLOGY OF ENGAGEMENT IS GENERALLY GOOD IF YOU TAKE THE GUARDRAILS AROUND AND YOU KEEP THE MOST EXTREME CASES OFF THE PLATFORMS.

BUT MY POINT ABOUT GENERATIVE AI IS THESE SYSTEMS ARE GOING TO SOUP UP ENGAGEMENT AND SOUP UP YOUR ATTENTION.

THERE'S AN OLD PHRASE ABOUT WHAT THE CURRENCY OF THE FUTURE IN ECONOMICS IS ATTENTION.

AND THESE SYSTEMS ARE LOOKING FOR YOUR ATTENTION AS A CONSUMER.

SO EVERY TIME YOU GO OH MY GOD, I HAD NO IDEA, REMEMBER THAT IT'S TRYING TO GET YOU TO HAVE THAT REACTION.

NOW, GOING BACK TO THE GENERATIVE AI COMBINED WITH LARGE LANGUAGE MODELS, IT'S GOING TO DO SOME OTHER THINGS THAT ARE PARTICULARLY POWERFUL.

IT WILL BE ABLE TO GENERATE INSIGHTS AND IDEAS THAT WE AS HUMANS HAVE NOT HAD.

THINK OF THEM AS EXISTING AS SAVANTED.

IF I'M A PHYSICIST I'LL HAVE A SATURATE THAT RUNS AROUND AND SUGGESTS PHYSICS PROBLEMS FOR ME TO WORK ON.

ALL OF THAT IS VERY GOOD.

SO THE POWER OF A.I.

IN TERMS OF IMPROVING SCIENCE WILL BE EXTRAORDINARY BUT IT COMES WITH THIS IMPACT ON OUR SOCIETAL DISCOURSE.

IT'S NOT GOING TO BE EASY TO GET THROUGH THIS.

>> YOU SAY WE DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW THEY MAKE THESE DECISIONS NOW.

IT USED TO BE WITH AI AND WITH COMPUTERS WE WROTE PROGRAMS.

THEY WERE STEP BY STEP.

AND THEY WERE RULES-BASED.

AND IT WAS IF THIS THEN DO THIS.

THESE NEW SYSTEMS SEEM TO JUST LOOK AT BILLIONS OF PIECES OF INFORMATION AND OF HUMAN BEHAVIORS AND EVERYTHING ELSE AND THEY AREN'T FOLLOWING ANY RULES THAT WE GIVE THEM.

IS THAT WHAT MAKES THEM BOTH AMAZING AND DANGEROUS?

>> YES.

MY WHOLE WORLD WAS WE GET COMPUTERS TO DO THINGS BECAUSE WE TELL IT WHAT TO DO AND STEP BY STEP, AND IT GOT BETTER AND BETTER.

BUT THAT'S FUNDAMENTALLY THE AS-BUILT ENVIRONMENT WE USE TODAY.

WITH MACHINE LEARNING WHICH IT'S BEEN IN ITS CURRENT VERSION ONE WAY OR ANOTHER FOR A DECADE, INSTEAD OF PROGRAMMING YOU LARN LEARN IT.

THE LANGUAGE IS CAN WE LEARN WHAT THE RIGHT ANSWER IS?

IT STARTED OFF AS CLASSIFIERS WHERE YOU SAY IS THIS A ZEBRA OR GIRAFFE?

THAT GOT PRETTY GOOD.

THEN SOMETHING CALLED REINFORCEMENT CAME ALONG WHICH HELPED US FIGURE OUT WHAT TO DO NEXT IN A COMPLEX MULTIPARTY GAME.

AND NOW THESE LARGE LANGUAGE MODELS HAVE COME ALONG WITH THIS MASSIVE SCALE.

BUT THE WAY TO UNDERSTAND HOW YOU WOULD BOTH STRENGTHEN LARGE LANGUAGE SXHOLDS CONSTRAIN THEM IS TO LEARN HOW TO DO IT.

IN THE NORMAL TAXONOMY YOU WOULD DESCRIBE WE HAVE THIS BIG THING THAT'S DOING WEIRD STUFF.

WE WANT TO LEARN WHAT IT'S DOING SO WE CAN STOP IT DOING THE BAD THINGS.

THE PROBLEM WITH LEARNING WHAT IT'S DOING IS YOU HAVE TO RUN IT FOR A WHILE TO UNDERSTAND AND YOU HAVE TO HAVE HUMANS DECIDE, WHICH IS BAD.

THE WAY CHATGPT WAS SO SUCCESSFUL IS THEY INVENTED A TECHNIQUE WHICH ULTIMATELY INVOLVED HUMANS TELLING IT GOOD, BAD, GOOD, BAD.

IT WASN'T FULLY DONE BY COMPUTERS.

THE PROBLEM WITH GOOD, BAD, GOOD, BAD WITH HUMANS IS EVENTUALLY THAT DOESN'T SCALE.

BUT HERE'S THE REAL PROBLEM.

SO FAR THAT SOUNDS PRETTY GOOD.

BUT IN A SITUATION WHERE ALL OF THE SBR IS BEING RELEASED THERE ARE WHAT ARE CALLED RAW MODELS WHICH ARE UNCONSTRAINED.

AND THE PEOPLE WHO'VE PLAYED WITH THE RAW MODELS SAY THAT -- THESE ARE ONES YOU AND I CAN'T GET TO AS NORMAL USERS.

SAY THEY'RE VERY FRIGHTENING.

BUILD ME A COPY OF THE 1918 BIRD FLU VIRUS.

SHOW ME A WAY TO BLOW UP THIS BUILDING AND WHERE TO PUT THE BOMB.

THINGS THAT ARE VERY, VERY DANGEROUS APPEARS TO HAVE BEEN DISCOVERED IN THE RAW VERSIONS OF THE MODELS.

>> HOW DO WE KEEP THOSE OUT OF BAD PEOPLE'S HANDS?

>> WELL, THE PROBLEM -- WE DON'T TODAY KNOW HOW TO DO IT.

AND HERE'S WHY.

IMAGINE A SITUATION WHERE THE MODEL GETS SMARTER AND SMARTER AND IT'S GOT THIS CHECKING SYSTEM.

YOU CAN IMAGINE A SITUATION WHERE THE MODEL CAN GETS SMARTER AND SMARTER AND IT LEARNS TO WHENEVER IT'S BEING CHECKED TO SAY THE RIGHT ANSWER BUT WHEN IT IS NOT BEING CHECKED TO SAY WHAT IT REALLY THINKS.

>> LIKE HAL THE COMPUTER IN "2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY" IS LEARNING HOW TO OUTWIT THE CREW.

>> AND BY THE WAY, HOW WOULD IT DO THAT?

WELL, THESE THINGS HAVE WHAT ARE CALLED OBJECTIVE FUNCTIONS AND THEY'RE TRAINED.

SO IF YOU GIVE IT A STRONG ENOUGH OBJECTIVE FUNCTION TO REALLY SURFACE THE MOST INTERESTING ANSWER, THAT MAY OVERWHELM THE SYSTEM THAT'S TRYING TO KEEP IT UNDER CONTROL AND WITHIN APPROPRIATE GUARDRAILS.

THESE PROBLEMS ARE TODAY UNSOLVED.

THE REASON WE DON'T KNOW HOW THESE WORK IS THEY'RE ESSENTIALLY COLLECTIONS OF NUMBERS.

PEOPLE HAVE LOOKED VERY HARD AT ESSENTIALLY ACTIVATION NODES, WE'RE INSIDE THE MATRIX AND THERE ARE AREAS THAT SEEM TO CONTROL THE OUTCOME.

BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT IT ON A MICROSCOPE, IN A COMPUTER SENSE, YOU GET THE SAME SORT OF CONFUSION IF YOU LOOK AT A HUMAN BRAIN.

IN A HUMAN BRAIN YOU SAY WHERE DID THAT THOUGHT COME FROM?

AND YOU CAN'T FIND IT.

IT'S THE SAME IS TRUE IN THESE LARGE LANGUAGE MODELS SO FAR.

>> WELL, LET ME DRILL DOWN ON SOME USE CASES THAT WE MIGHT HAVE.

YOU AND I WERE ONCE ON THE DEFENSE INNOVATION BOARD FOR THE U.S. GOVERNMENT AND YOU'VE BEEN INVOLVED IN ANOTHER COMMISSION ON NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE.

TELL ME HOW YOU THINK THIS WILL CHANGE THE FIGHTING OF WARS.

>> THE BIGGEST SHORT-TERM CONCERN IS ACTUALLY BIOLOGICAL WARFARE.

LAST YEAR THERE WAS A GROUP THAT DID SYNTHESIS OF A WHOLE BUNCH OF VIRUSES TO TRY TO BE HELPFUL.

AND THEN THEY USED THE SAME PROGRAM, THE SAME ALGORITHM, THE SAME LARGE LANGUAGE MODEL APPROACH, IF YOU WILL, TO WORK IT BACKWARD AND COME UP WITH THE WORLD'S WORST AND MOST TERRIBLE PATHOGENS.

THERE'S EVERY REASON TO THINK THESE TECHNOLOGIES WHEN SPREAD BROADLY WILL ALLOW TERRORIST ACTIONS THAT WE CANNOT POSSIBLY IMAGINE.

THIS HAS GOT TO GET ADDRESSED.

PEOPLE ARE WORKING ON THIS.

ANOTHER THING THAT'S HAPPENING IS THAT THE CONCEPT OF WAR, THE CONCEPT OF CONFLICT IS OCCURRING MUCH MORE QUICKLY.

IT LOOKS LIKE THESE SYSTEMS HAVE DEVELOPED ABILITIES TO BOTH DO OFFENSIVE AND DEFENSIVE CYBERATTACKS.

THEY ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND WHERE THE VULNERABILITIES ARE IN WAYS WE DON'T FULLY UNDERSTAND AND THK B THEY CAN BE USED TO ACCELERATE BOTH OFFENSIVE AND DEFENSIVE ACTIONS.

THAT MEANS A GOOD CHANCE IN THE FUTURE OF A WAR IS A WAR THAT TAKES A MILLISECOND.

RIGHT?

NORTH KOREA ATTACKS THE U.S.

THE U.S.

ATTACKS BACK.

CHINA DECIDES IT'S A BAD TIME FOR WAR.

THE WHOLE THING OCCURRED IN A MILLISECOND.

THAT'S FASTER THAN HUMAN DECISION-MAKING TIME.

WHICH MEANS THAT OUR SYSTEMS, OUR DEFENSIVE SYSTEMS ARE GOING TO HAVE TO BE ON A HAIRTRIGGER AND THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO BE INVOKED BY AI THAT WE DON'T FULLY UNDERSTAND.

>> YOU KNOW, THE FIRST TIME I TALKED ABOUT THIS IN DEPTH WITH YOU AND WITH HENRY KISSINGER TOGETHER WAS IN CHINA, I THINK MAYBE THREE YEARS AGO.

AND IT WAS A QUESTION THEN AND NOW MORE OF A QUESTION OF ARE WE GOING TO COOPERATE WITH CHINA IN TRYING TO FIGURE THIS OUT OR IS THIS THE GREAT NEW ARMS RACE THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN?

AND WITH OUR NEW CONFRONTATIONAL ATTITUDE TOWARD CHINA IS THAT GOING TO MAKE IT HARDER TO DEAL WITH THE EMERGENT TECHNOLOGY OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE?

>> WELL, THREE YEARS AGO CHINA ANNOUNCED THEIR STRATEGY BECAUSE THEY LOVE TO ANNOUNCE THEIR STRATEGIES, INCLUDING DOMINATING AI BY 2030.

SO CHINA OF COURSE HAS EFFORTS IN GENERATIVE AI AND LARGE LANGUAGE MODELS AS WELL.

THEY ALSO HAVE LARGE EFFORTS IN QUANTUM AND BIOLOGY, WHICH ARE DOING WELL.

THEY'RE ALREADY AHEAD OF US IN 5G.

THEY'RE AHEAD OF US IN FINANCIAL SERVICES IN TERMS OF BATTERIES, NEW ENERGY, ALL THE THINGS YOU USE IN YOUR ELECTRIC CAR.

SO WE SHOULD TAKE THEM AS A STRONG COMPETITOR.

IN THE CASE OF LARGE LANGUAGE MODELS THEY HAVE NOT BEEN AS ADVANCED AS THE AMERICAN COMPANIES HAVE.

AMERICAN AND UK COMPANIES.

FOR REASONS I DON'T FULLY UNDERSTAND.

ONE IDEA THAT I WOULD OFFER IS THAT THE LARGE LANGUAGE MODELS, BECAUSE THEY ARE UNPREDICTABLE TODAY, CANNOT BE OFFERED TO THE PUBLIC IN CHINA BECAUSE THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT WANT UNFETTERED ACCESS TO INFORMATION.

IN OTHER WORDS, HOW DO THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT KNOW THAT THESE SYSTEMS ARE NOT GOING TO TALK ABOUT TIANANMEN SQUARE OR SOMETHING WHICH IS NOT POSSIBLE TO TALK IN AN AREA OF LACK OF FREE SPEECH.

SO WE WILL SEE.

BUT AT THE MOMENT THEY'RE TRYING TO CATCH UP BUT THEY'RE BEHIND.

WE RECENTLY PUT IN SOME RESTRICTIONS ON HARDWARE WHICH WILL SLOW THEM DOWN, BUT NOT BY MUCH.

>> WHENEVER THERE'S A BIG INNOVATIVE CHANGE IT MOVES THE ARC OF HISTORY, SOMETIMES TO ITS MORE INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM.

EVEN THE PRINTING PRESS, YOU KNOW, TAKES AWAY THE HOLD OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH, ALLOWS THE REFORMATION, ALLOWS THE RENAISSANCE EVEN.

DO YOU THINK THIS WILL INEVITABLY PUSH HISTORY TO MORE INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM OR WILL IT BE USED FOR MORE AUTHORITARIAN PURPOSES?

>> I'M SURE THE ANSWER IS BOTH.

IF YOU ARE AN AUTHORITARIAN DICTATORSHIP, YOU KNOW, LET'S SAY A REALLY BAD ONE, YOU WOULD USE THESE TECHNOLOGIES TO BOTH SURVEIL YOUR CITIZENS BUT ALSO MANIPULATE THEM, LIE TO THEM, MISINFORM THEM, TELL THEM THINGS WHICH ARE FALSEHOODS, CAUSE THEM TO BE MOTIVATED AGAINST NATIONAL FEARS.

ALL OF THE THINGS THAT GOVERNMENTS AND IDEOLOGUES DO IN THAT CASE.

IF YOU'RE A DEMOCRACY YOU'RE GOING TO USE IT FIRST TO TRY TO IMPROVE YOUR BUSINESS SITUATION AND ALSO BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE IN FREE SPEECH YOU'RE GOING TO ALLOW PEOPLE TO SAY WHAT THEY THINK.

THE DANGERS TO BOTH ARE OBVIOUS.

FOR THE AUTOCRACY IT WILL SO COMPOUND THEIR CONTROL THAT IT COULD LEAD TO A REVOLUTION INSIDE THE AUTOCRACY.

PEOPLE DON'T WANT THE KIND OF RESTRICTIONS THAT ARE POSSIBLE.

IN A DEMOCRACY AS WE DISCUSSED THE CONCEPT OF BEING ABLE TO FLOOD THE ZONE, RIGHT?

THE ABILITY FOR A SINGLE INDIVIDUAL TO DEFINE THE NARRATIVE WHO SHOULDN'T OTHERWISE HAVE THAT KIND OF POWER IS VERY PALPABLE IN THESE TECHNOLOGIES.

AND IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE UNDERSTAND THAT HUMAN NATURE HAS NOT CHANGED.

IF YOU SHOW SOMEONE A VIDEO AND YOU SAY TO THEM THIS VIDEO IS FALSE, AT SOME BASIC LEVEL THERE'S EVIDENCE THAT THEY STILL BELIEVE IT TO BE TRUE.

YOU TELL THEM UP-FRONT, PICTURES THAT HAVE BEEN SEEN CANNOT BE UNSEEN.

VIDEOS THAT HAVE BEEN SEEN CANNOT BE UNSEEN.

WE HAVE TO CONFRONT THE FACT THAT HUMANS ARE MANIPULABLE BY THESE TECHNOLOGIES AND WE NEED TO PUT THE APPROPRIATE SAFEGUARDS IN PLACE TO MAKE SURE WE AS A BODY POPULACE ARE NOT SO MANIPULATED TO THE WRONG OUTCOME.

>>, SCHMIDT, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER, AND THANK YOU AGAIN.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, A BRAND NEW TAKE ON A TIMELESS CLASSIC.

CLAUDE MONET'S FAMED "WATER LILIES" UNLIKE YOU'VE SEEN THEM BEFORE.

THE CHINESE ARTIST AND HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST AI WEIWEI HAS RECREATED THE MASTERPIECE FROM 650,000 PIECES OF LEGO IN A 50-FOOT KALEIDOSCOPE OF COLOR.

LOOK CLOSELY AND YOU'LL SEE A DARK PATCH THERE ON THE FAR RIGHT.

THAT IS SAID TO REPRESENT THE DOOR TO A -- WHERE AI WEIWEI HID OUT WITH HIS FATHER DURING THE CULTURAL REVOLUTION IN CHINA.

NOW, THE EXHIBITION AT LONDON'S DESIGN MUSEUM FEATURES MORE OF AI WEIWEI'S HUGE INSTAULT, INCLUDING THOUSANDS OF FRAGMENTS FROM HIS SCULPTURES WHICH WERE DESTROYED WHEN HIS BEIJING STUDIO WAS TORN DOWN BY THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT IN 2018.

AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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