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the 2025 session of the Indiana General Assembly officially begins next Wednesday.

This is the budget session as lawmakers return to the state house with the charge to prepare and pass a new two year state spending plan.

>> What else lies ahead legislatively for the General Assembly between now and the end of April?

>> We'll discuss that question with our guests and we'll take your questions as well on this edition of Prime Time.

And good evening.

I'm bruisings with us today.

Our Mike Wolf he is chair and professor of political science and acting director of the Mike Down Center for Indiana Politics at Purdue University.

Fort Wayne McKissic is here.

He's editorial page editor at the Journal Gazette and Mitch Harper is with us, local attorney and a former state representative and we invite you to join us here in studio.

Just call that you see on the screen with any questions or comments you'd like to share as we go along.

>> And then meanwhile though, let's say hi to Fred Mitsch, our Fred, Mike and Mitch.

It's it's a new year and may it be a happy one.

>> Gentlemen, welcome aboard.

Thank you for having me and having me here.

>> So one thing a little different than say 12 months prior is we haven't had a change in Indiana's chief executive for eight year 2017, Governor Eric Holcomb steps down.

Governor elect Mike Brown's preparing to step up.

So let me start with the the easy question of what does this transition do or mean for the dynamic between the branches, the executive branch, the legislative branch?

There's been some continuity.

Now we have the important personnel move and does it matter at all or what kind of matter matters in your mind?

>> Fred, start with you.

>> Well, we'll take something like property tax reform where I think LeBron has his ideas.

It appears that the supermajority the at least the leadership has its ideas now can they blend those ideas?

I'm pretty sure they can.

It's not that big of a step for , you know, Brauns policies into the you know, ideas the supermajority would have.

>> But you know, change is always you know, a political change is always going a little bit different.

This is you know, will Braun look at himself as being, you know, the supremo of the party even with different branches of government or will he be more of a person committed to you know you know, working with the legislative branch and you know, finding these solutions that we need?

>> I mean we're talking about Medicaid funding.

>> So one billion dollar shortfall that is going to be huge and there's not the money there aren't ARPA funds anymore which you know, boy, that helped a lot of projects but certainly, you know you know, given the funding issues that we're talking about, they're going to have to be cooperative and we'll see how it happens.

>> Mike, how about you, sir?

Yeah, I take it back even 20 years when Mitch Daniels became governor and promised no culture war issues.

This is a different time and Indiana is a different place was the most competitive state in the union at this legislative level it's no longer that clearly the supermajority of a 38 trifecta states and I really think the culture has changed substantially and we'll see whether this is not even the governor it's the governor and lieutenant governor and whether that split in which which side of the party gets pulled and the active part of the party in this legislative session because there's even a divide here.

What we see at the across all of those executive offices including attorney general and everything else.

So I do think we're going to see a state legislative session we haven't seen in in decades.

>> So it's a different culture.

The Mitch you were part of a state house that was always keeping an eye on the executive and the other eye in a variety of spots.

How but how about this year?

What's going on you got with your colleagues at governors end of their first term in different ways and some don't have a big legislative package prepared.

They're finding their way.

I would say Bob was one of those others like Mitch Daniels as I described his administration, he hit the gasoline driving the car.

It snapped everyone's heads back and he didn't let up the accelerator till his term was done.

I think Mike Brown will probably come out of the gate pretty strongly and I can't say exactly what the things will be that he proposes.

Josh Kelly, who is his chief of staff, has worked with a lot of the legislators in terms of their campaigns and what he had prior done.

I think the interesting thing about Governor Braun is his reorganization of creating a really true cabinet.

Indiana, like a lot of states was a collection of bureaus and commissions and and departments and those names all meant something and some of them, particularly the commissions operated completely under themselves.

He's kind of brought everything under one and say given his background a much more businesslike form and I think it could perhaps be the biggest step on reorganization since Governor McNutt tried to lasso all of those boards and commissions back and back when he assumed office in the Depression.

Yeah, I Governor Brown probably will come out of the gate with some key proposals but I don't know what they are.

>> I don't think he's really given that signal.

Yeah, I was reading about this notion of eight verticals that are being created within the administration where those cabinet members are overseeing those agencies and the call Governor elect Brown has said that this layer of management would create government efficiencies and be entrepreneur real and accessible.

>> Mike, you studied this this species.

What do you think William organizations and reorganizations always really look good and make sense as much and sometimes the rollout out how you run into civil service and other and legislative I think we certainly the legislature will have something to say about how the policies get implemented at the front end if if they see something that they they want definitely done and include that in the legislative session.

So we'll see I mean it's truly important I think to always be looking at the structure of government and Mitch Daniels trying to do this with boards and reorganize them, ask everyone to leave and other things.

Governors always try and do this.

And I do think though that there's some sense in the structure of this to make this and maybe that's due to his time in Washington too and seeing how organizations can be better set up at executive level.

>> Do you see where those efficiencies can can come just reduce the number of emails along the way as you're as a topic is discussed or policies implement they might they might ease the number of emails and the number of contacts between agency agency heads and different persons on the governor's staff I think depends on how some of these folks that have been named for the cabinet are going to get in gain control over these agencies.

Some of those agencies will have people in them and Mike alluded to the bureaucracies who will be very jealous of of giving up what they've seen as their prerogatives and their direct connection to the governor's office.

>> So that's all going to be worked out and some of that involves human nature.

Sure.

Hmm.

And that's where I guess there's not only the dynamic between executive and legislative but also within executive and within legislative too.

We also have 14 new lawmakers coming into the state House for the first time around.

>> Yeah, we'll see how I can go .

I'll be absorbed into, you know, the current system but you know, it's funny getting back to you know, streamlining, you know, the bureaucracy.

>> I like the idea of entrepreneurship as long as there's transparency and as long as you know as a journalist, as citizens, as a professor we see how this is going.

>> I there were times in the past eight years that I think, you know, the Obama administration could have been a little bit more public.

I always worry about what's going to get better and I think that there will people I just think that, you know, sometimes saying well, we don't want to scare off developers so we're going to keep everything secret .

>> You know, this is government and it's the government of the people and we ought to, you know, continue to demand that it be the government of the people.

>> The other thing is is yeah, I agree about these the structure of government as being sometimes unfortunately little fiefdoms.

>> But you know, if you look at some businesses that are very successful, they see themselves as ecosystems.

Why can't education and health talk with each other?

>> You know, why can't these groups think that would be the entrepreneurial point for me is, you know, groups that tend to that should work together see themselves as a bigger ego, a part of a bigger ecosystem then here's my little fiefdom.

>> I don't care what happens in education or here's my little fiefdom.

I don't care what happens, you know, in workforce development.

>> And one thing please just add and said I think Daniels if anyone was somebody that really transformed the state and one of the big changes he made as I say, fell flat on his face I mean so that some of these things will work great, others might really trip up and so there's you know, lauded him for doing and making these changes and seeing this hopefully though the transition to work and I know we talk about this session as the budget building session but Mitch, this budget has been in the act of being built like ever since Organization Day and perhaps in the hallways even before that time in November.

>> Well, and the budget is is not so much being built but some of the entitlements and so on are dictating what's being spent.

And as Fred said, there isn't any extra TARP money rolling around.

There isn't a great revenue situation.

They're going to be working under constraints and when you're working under constraints there are tough choices to be made.

I think you've got some strong hands in the legislature in regards to that.

>> I think Senator Mishler here in our region is is key among them.

Yeah, I know there's the concern about Medicaid.

We've come down from a billion there have been some cuts but yet concerns about underestimating enrollments and use of services and the pace of expenses going.

Percentage wise faster than the rise of revenue.

And yet Governor elect Brown is suggesting that he would rather not cut Medicaid access but rather focus on lower hanging fruit like reducing Medicaid fraud.

>> Will that work?

Sure it sounds good.

>> But again, I love when we say things like Medicaid fraud.

OK, how much I mean has he has there been any research done?

Does he know something we don't know that might help?

You know the other problem is is that you know what if you know there are federal issues that come up also with Medicaid funding if I remember what was it I think Indiana has a law a trigger law that would automatically cut coverage for about 30 percent of the state's Medicaid population should the Affordable Care Act Medicaid expansion be slashed?

>> I mean yeah, great.

I would love to get rid of the fraud part but is that enough in itself to, you know, level things out and not and we had a session at organization today with my town center and health care industries talking about the fact that the Indiana is ranked 41st in the country and health our costs are going up simply because the health of the population is really bad and I think certainly Governor Holcomb tried to address that and that's a driver of the cost of Medicaid not just who's eligible but also the underlying cause of it and actually the cost of health care in Indiana is ranked somewhere between nine and 19 per capita which is way too high and then you can't have nine and nineteen and 41st in health outcomes and not have this gap that's going to be yawning and driving Medicaid and every other cost.

>> All right.

Well, I mean you've got legislators some here in northeast Indiana who have been pretty strident about health care costs and about looking at some of the larger non-profits that are in that space.

Professor Hicks down at Ball State has been constantly critical in terms of health care costs.

I think that's going to continue.

You have some very big players in that space.

It'll be interesting as to how that they didn't really move the ball very much in the last couple of sessions.

Will there be more radical change?

I don't know.

I think one of the other fiscal things is a little bit of what Governor Governor elect Braun has talked about is the property tax of really leaning hard on keeping Indiana's tax increases low but perhaps allowing local units or telling local units if you want extra revenue it's not going to come from the state.

You have some options of raising tax revenue.

Well, that's not going to sit well with the public at all because that that's reminiscent of what happened under governor by where you had gone through the bone in other administrations of controlling property taxes and that meant a little less revenue.

Cities and towns had tough decisions to make.

They didn't have options to raise revenue.

Governor by came in and said we're you know, his image was we're really going to be frugal when it comes Indiana state government.

We're going to hold statewide tax increases to a low level but they had all sorts of allowances for local governments to raise taxes and pretty soon people were yelling about the increase in property taxes.

Most of that hit Governor Obama's administration when it got started under under Evan Bayh.

So they go through these cycles of controlling local government spending and then governors look great and holding state spending but allowing locals to raise income taxes and have property tax increases and we'll tax increases that we may be on that cycle again.

>> I'm waiting to to ask you so let me just do it now can be sure it gets there.

>> This is the time when the state and local tax review task force brings forth its final report and some of that according to Senator Coleman's office.

The final report includes multiple reform recommendations for property taxes and local income taxes.

>> Is there sufficient time on the clock to try to see if any of that can be synthesized with expectations from the governor's office to be put next to a calculator and then determine what the best way forward might be?

>> Yes.

And again, I think this is you know, what is Brauns thinking on this?

I think he's a bit more aggressive about property taxes and I think Goldman and that task force are not quite as aggressive on what should happen.

>> I think one of the things the House had talked about was a sales tax on, you know, tourists bill that probably won't go anywhere.

But I mean that's where we're going with these things.

Something has to be done I think was it there might be I think 20 26 is the year that they're really worried about because revenues will be really down and so 20 25 might be a little bit easier for them to process the ideas but twenty twenty six is going to be really rough.

>> I was looking at the idea that behind education Medicaid is the second largest component within the budget but then fighting for third or just additional shelf space mentally would be things like boosting transportation infrastructure investment a.k.a.

road funding which is something that has been maybe on the stove slowly beginning to hit boil but hadn't heard much about the the push for that necessarily until right now as a former lawmaker, how do you try to indeed make room on the spreadsheet or other some that just stay in the parking lot fiscally speaking we've kind of gone through and you know, we've all experienced it here in L.A. County.

There's been a lot of money sloshing around for local road and street funding.

Allen County has had many projects.

Fort Wayne has has really advanced a lot.

Certainly Governor Holcomb made that a priority.

Now it's kind of coming to a halt.

And how do you how do you extend that funding in the future as you have different forms of transportation where where the gas tax is not the is not the be all and end all.

They've got some issues to wrestle with.

All of that comes down I think strong leadership I mean and in a shorthand way that comes down to a strong stance from Speaker Houston and and how much he can lean on his caucus in order to to move whatever they decide to do forward.

It really requires strong leadership to lean on their members when it's going to come to some final leap.

I don't know if I don't I don't know if they're all ready to do that.

>> Let's step away from the budget just briefly in the seven minutes that remain and so all of this is unfair.

It needs a little more expansion time but legislatively, Mike, let me share with you the things that you've heard themes from last session that may carry over into this one, the ones that might be introduced.

What are you hearing as far as other issue topics that may become proposed bills in the next half a dozen weeks?

>> Well, that's going to see it's going to be very interesting because the property tax clearly there's already bills flying around.

I mean we've talked about the study committees and everything else but people are already individually setting and setting the agenda and trying to get out front on a lot of that and also expect to see a lot of we've heard in the race for governor and in the particularly primary about more school funding changes and that will be a big thing.

But as you know, more broad look and looking at things nationally, we should be looking at what Florida and Texas do because as a trifecta stay here where Republicans control everything with a supermajority and easily able to overcome a veto by the way that we should a lot of the innovative things that Florida and Texas have done I think will catch on here whether those are some of the culture war things that might slip in even though there's a debate on the in a budgetary session whether those things will come in.

I do think we'll we'll find particularly with newer lawmakers who have gotten elected with some of the more ideological energy, some of that that action as well.

>> So how clean can we keep things like Medicaid and property tax reform away from some of the other things?

Entering in a budget year will be interesting to me whether the culture wars stuff really comes in on the legislative To-Do list where you see well, you know, I think one thing that we have to, you know, do talk about is the fact that, you know, Indiana retains its AAA credit rating.

We do have reserves.

It's not you know, the end of the world.

>> I think one of the things you brought up was that, you know, the second biggest thing you know, item is education and a lot of that money is universal school choice.

You know, my predecessor Karen Francisco called this from the very beginning that this was not simply about helping low income children, you know, get a leg up that eventually what we see now which is I think this year they want to raise it to two hundred and twenty thousand dollars.

As you know, the the high end limit to getting a voucher for a family of four.

You know, again, that's a lot of money that can be spent in other places.

>> You know, universal health , Attari Universal School choice you is you know, is an issue that I don't think people really take as seriously as they should in terms of like how you were spending your money and you know, could that money be had that been used in other places in education particularly since I think new scores show that, you know, public schools in the state by and large are doing extremely well.

>> You know, does that mean that every school district you know, every school you know but you know, overall public schools do a very good job of , you know, teaching our kids.

>> Yeah.

Which legislatively what things do you expect to see stories written about and conversations pertain to as we move forward?

>> Well, there'll always be some issues no one is forcing that will capture the public's imagination or capture Indiana capital Chronicle's imagination.

Certainly one of them is Bob Morris's introduction of a bill to ban the death penalty.

I know that it comes from a deep reservoir of belief in him and and there will be other supporters of that that's going to be an interesting debate even if the bill doesn't move along.

There is a national group called Conservatives Against the Death Penalty that's been operating for 20 some years.

It was founded by Richard Viguerie and their idea was that if there's going to be a change in death penalty laws will come from conservatives, not from from liberals.

They've had quite a few successes and and surprising successes around the country and I know they're I know they're linked up with Representative Morris this time.

>> That's going to be an interesting debate and we at when he announced that he was doing this, I mean I was really shocked and then I thought about it that you know, this reminds me of Father Ted Habsburg, Notre Dame I mean a great human rights advocate but staunchly, you know, anti-abortion and anti death penalty and you know, as part of a Catholic tradition that you know, I think some people can understand or you know you know, Bob Morris and I are probably never going to be on the same sides on a lot of things but we are on the same side on this and I was very proud to have somebody from this area, you know, pushed that legislation each get 30 seconds on this if that but do you see any surprises the surprise topic out of left field that you suddenly seizes the imagination and if not, that's OK. >> But Mike, it's the lightning round.

We'll start with you.

I said I think the culture war issues and higher ed for me can I count on that to see changes in curriculum and what's allowed in that because particularly with Indiana, Purdue strong university systems, they've been kept alone for a lot of years.

But last year I think with the tenure bill in particular we might see opening up of some things some other aspects of curriculum about women's studies and and other curricular things that might be discussed much about user I think you know, given the this this New Year's events of this week, there will be a lot of public concern and attention.

There'll be a lot of discussion on how prepared DNA is to meet both public safety emergencies that are actions by individuals or by groups.

And how prepared are we in terms of natural disaster?

I think there's going to be attention on this and you know, some of that always is dependent on how the tornado season goes, how flooding may go but this week I think has focused people's attention.

And Fred, you get 15 seconds, 15 seconds if that no, I agree with both and I what I what I'm dreading is the culture war nonsense that will come up and then again make Indiana look like we're a bunch of knuckleheads and we're not as a state and you know what I would love to see is you know, us figure out Medicaid because that is the most important issue right now.

>> The state or the perspectives are tremendous as collectively it's a for us to find our way with you through the upcoming General Assembly session.

Stay with us as prime time follows weeks along right here on PBS Fort Wayne for Fred McKissic and Mike Wolf and Ed Harper, I'm saying thank you so much for watching.

>> Take care and we'll see you next week.

Good night The Rogers Company has been conducting business in northeast Indiana since 1944 as Rogers Markets and now as The Rogers Company with commercial property and real estate development.

Pleased to support local not for profits and PBS Fort Wayne.