Nugen Law; focusing on estate planning and elder care law, emphasizing independence and quality of life.

Serving Indiana, Ohio, Michigan, and Florida.

More information at NugenLaw.com.

good evening.

>> I'm so glad you're with tonight because this is an extremely interesting topic that we're going to be dealing with and we want to prevent you from having any monetary loss.

We're going to be talking about fraud and scams tonight with Brian Nuge in our elder law attorney here and we've both been sharing how many situations or fraud or scam things that have come up in our own lives.

So we're going to share some of the most common ones that are going on now and Brian has some suggestions to help you help yourself.

>> How about that?

Hi, Brian.

Hi, Sandy .

>> How are you?

Good to see you.

I love this.

I just love this.

Thank you.

Well, I have to tell you the last time Brian was here we started talking about this after the show and just talk to him like this is pretty exciting and then and then since then we both have had situations where we've potentially been scammed.

>> That's true and people are scammed every day and we don't want to make a derogatory comment to you because scammers are becoming so good that even the most trusting person easily falls into those traps.

>> OK, Brian, let's start start out by just talking about what elder fraud or elder scam.

>> So when the FBI is determining an elderly person that's been scammed, they're looking at folks that are aged 65 and older.

So when we're talking about elder fraud or elder scams, that's when someone has spent money on something has had money taken from them for a purpose that they didn't intend or they didn't recognize that it wasn't for their for their betterment or for their benefit somebody taking advantage of them.

So when we're looking at elderly elder schol scams, senior scams 65 and above and they have had money taken from them, finance is taken from them and they didn't intend for it to go as as they did actually.

>> Right.

Yeah, right.

And unfortunately or fortunately I don't know I think we're Americans are a very trusting society and especially the older generation .

>> I mean I can remember back when my parents were just you believe everybody and anybody came to the door or whatever and you know, you didn't even take your car keys inside and you didn't lock the door.

>> I mean it was interesting world but unfortune the next generation is beginning to realize not not quite so much.

>> So you're hitting a great point, Sandy .

And that's that the group that's being scammed, those elderly over sixty five they're from a generation where you're polite to people.

You answer the phone, you respond to the knock on the door and maybe you're a little naive about cell phones.

You might be a little naive about how computers work or when something you receive something in the mail you've seen it in writing and as a result you believe it is true that you really have been made this off or there's a phone call from someone and you misunderstand who they may be and you're answering questions.

So you've got this population that is aging that's used to being very polite, answering the phone calls when my when my grandmother was living I would say to her don't answer the phone, grandma.

You know those are not real phone calls but she couldn't help herself.

>> She just wanted to answer that phone every time it rang.

That was sporadic.

That's well actually you know, phone is the big issue too.

>> And I do understand I know the Better Business Bureau has said if you get a scam or fraud call if you answer the phone, doggone it, you stay on the list because to them that means even if you don't talk to them, if you just pick up the phone it means somebody lives there.

We're going to keep them on our lists and those calls are good.

>> They will use robocalls.

So if there's a they'll send a robo call out to several numbers at one time if you pick up then they've got you they know that that's a valid line number one.

>> Number two , they're also recording are you there?

>> Are you there and you're answering?

Yes, I am.

Who is this and you're giving your name you're providing that information and the calling companies are excellent as well.

When you look if you have a cell phone or you have a reader on your landline that indicates the number that is coming from it may be coming from your own area code .

So they're coming from an area code and you believe it to be accurate.

>> You think that it is local?

Oh, it's local.

It's OK for me to answer the phone.

It isn't necessarily local.

It isn't necessarily a good thing.

So phone scams are a very common way for folks to be taken advantage of .

>> I like that you mentioned that it may be our own area code .

I know I have a caller ID on my home phone.

Yes.

And then also with Comcast on TV when the home phone rings up in the corner of the TV screen there's the name and the phone number who's calling and that's great.

>> You can decide do I want to get up off the couch and go out but not if you don't recognize the number.

>> Don't answer.

Send it to voicemail.

Screen it.

You have the opportunity to to give them a call back.

If somebody was supposed to get a hold of you most likely they're either not going to leave a message right or it will be a message that doesn't make sense.

It's nonsensical.

Right.

And don't return those phone calls.

You don't need to call them back.

But what happens is that folks to as they age they may be lonely.

>> They're looking for social interaction.

They're happy to talk to you.

That's right.

So when that phone is ringing it's up.

There may be somebody for me to talk to and so if they're isolated and they're not around others, they're looking for that social outlet.

So that happens very frequently as well with seniors the phrase that they're using is senior orphans and what that means is you may not have children, you may not have family close to you.

>> You may be alienated from your family so you're more isolated and with social isolation becomes a little bit more vulnerability.

So you have to be very sensitive to that and we have to look out for those folks in our lives that may be those those senior orphans where they don't have that immediate family, maybe their kids are out of town or their kids are disconnected or they don't have children so those are the folks that are really the most vulnerable within that senior community right now.

>> How do they know and they know that you're going to maybe be in that category of isolated seniors?

>> Would you call so the phrase that they're using is senior orphans senior they're independent.

I do want to say something about it's not just seniors that it happens to now this population it's FBI said in twenty twenty three three point four three point six billion dollars were taken from seniors in the first three or four or five months of twenty twenty four that number had grown by three hundred million.

>> It grows every year and I think that the scammers are getting better and better and frankly we have an aging population.

>> It's the biggest bubble of our population that's true 65 and above.

It's our biggest population that's growing.

It's a vulnerable population and I think too that folks as they're aging if they found themselves in a situation where they were taken advantage of possibly they lost the money, they were scammed, they're embarrassed to tell.

So even the FBI is saying despite all that money that we know was lost, even more was lost.

And why is that?

Because people too are too embarrassed to admit that took place.

I was taken advantage of .

I lost money.

I was saying to you before we went on the air tonight this week, just this week there were four instances that affected me personally.

>> I got a letter in the mail from a it appeared to be a brokerage firm and you would know them.

It's a name that would be a very common indicating that I was so fortunate they had access to these funds.

Now of course nothing throw it away.

I was everybody's getting a text message right now about having passed new tolls on the toll road.

I received a text message just this week even in my own family speaking with a family member just tonight that they had a phone number appear on their computer screen and rather on their TV screen.

They were having trouble getting into their TV and they called the phone number and the individual said to them you need to go to Kvass or Home Depot and you need to make this charge.

>> You need to send these funds.

So in the family member attempted doing that twice and then at some point during that process realized maybe I shouldn't be doing this.

>> So it probably would not advise you would not be happy with that and the family member indicated to me you've told me before don't do this.

So this had happened a week and a half ago.

I learned about it today.

But that goes to the point of people being embarrassed to say this happened and one would never expect with somebody that close to you that it would happen but it does.

>> Senior scams are an ongoing issue.

Brian, I'm interested in any recourse or if you can get money back that you've been scammed for let's say your family member did unlike Jeff that charge through with the one good thing I guess if you're using so this is the same conversation I had.

>> If you're using a credit card at least you can reach out to the credit card company and indicate if you're aware that this isn't a real charge, please block that charge if you're using a debit card, if you're using a money order and sending money off, if you're using a cashier's check and sending that off that you don't have a recourse for that.

Really?

Yeah, the money's gone.

It's cash.

>> So you just mailed it off.

You've given it to them.

It is common in elder law practices that folks are taking advantage of not just by small amounts but by very large amounts oftentimes they're called romance romance romance.

>> Right.

Somebody is showing the affection and it usually starts out small.

It will be they're just having a conversation maybe over the texting or a phone call and then eventually it's could I need ten dollars or twenty dollars for groceries for my children or my grandchildren?

So then they feel responsible in a foreign country it's often a foreign country not always but yes, it's often a foreign country.

And then those requests for money as you've developed relationship with that person you've developed trust with that person was just a small amount I was helping with over time it rose.

And so if there is a reason to try and protect those seniors, if they're being taken advantage of on an ongoing basis through sometimes guardianships that are established to protect them and frankly against themselves because they're so willing to allow those funds to go and they're losing their retirement, they're taking mortgages out there borrowing money from family and friends to make these payments.

It's very sad that it's very sad and I've seen a number of shows on talk shows on TV that are the romance scams, you know, nitens there have been some men of course, but usually it's elderly women.

>> I've got to tell you in my state they're really hoping there's something they're out there in my practice I have seen it both in men and women.

I can't say that I've seen it isolated to women.

Perhaps the show that you were watching it would indicate that it's primarily women.

It could be I don't know that I will say in my own experience I have seen it both in men and in women and these are large dollar amounts that are being taken people that have lost their entire retirement, everything, everything.

>> It's very I mean hundreds of thousands of dollars and because they're there embarrassed they're not necessarily sharing with their children and they've done it once.

They've done it twice now they're committed and now it's almost as if you feel like it has to be true, it has to be true and they don't want to share with the kids when the kids find out they're shocked that it happened.

But don't be naive that it couldn't happen to the children as well.

Younger people are scammed.

It's not just folks 65 and over but on LIFE Ahead.

We'd like to talk about folks that maybe a little bit more mature and how it could affect them.

>> Yeah, sure.

For sure.

OK, so then the other than the examples you mentioned, there's no way to get money back.

I mean the people whether it's a romance scam or if the money is now you you could contact Adult Protective Services and perhaps Adult Protective Services would be able to pursue the individual if you could identify them.

Criminal charges could be filed but generally to collect that money back is not happening.

>> Yeah, that's pretty standard.

It is said, you know, Brian, you mentioned you had several examples and I brought something that I've just gotten as one of these postcards was last week and then I just got this one in the mail today and it's from the same company but it's all were there differently and it basically says is that I've won five hundred dollars or five hundred dollars that I can use at Amazon or Walmart or whatever I need to call this number to to claim my prize.

Now I'm not going obviously but what would happen if I do what?

>> Well congratulations.

You've great good for you.

You got this.

We can't wait to get that out to you.

So let's arrange now so we can make a deposit into your account.

Yeah.

So we need just a little bit of information from you so that we can make sure to forward this five hundred dollars to you what's your name.

>> Full name.

Great where do you bank and what's your account number.

Fantastic.

>> And your date of mother's maiden name.

Your mother's maiden name date of birth if they can get your Social Security they're getting they're wanting all of that information from you name date of birth, Social Security number, your address there.

They're wanting that information so that they can take advantage of your credit and take further advantage of you and what they're doing animation to drain my account.

>> That's exactly right.

That's exactly what here you can handle.

I'm not thanks to Sandy I just gave you five dollars million on my phone.

>> I have gotten two things one today, one yesterday.

>> It's amazing like how since we talked about it last month it's like wow I'm just so used to not answering the phone or throwing those things that junk mail away but I got a text today that said that there's a headhunter.

Oh yes headhunter.

You've probably gotten those well yeah I get them about once a month and says the lady's name whatever and according to the recommendations and whatever you know we know you're a valued employee so we want to offer you the opportunity to work from home.

>> Sure.

Work from home.

>> Oh yes.

And let's see I could make between two hundred and two thousand a day fantastic.

>> How about that?

So at the end of the day it's the smell test.

Does it smell does this is this appropriate stop take a beat.

>> Think about what's being presented to you.

Does that sound realistic?

Does it sound realistic that somebody in this instance is going to be paying you two thousand dollars a day to work from home if it's too good to be true, it's too good to be true kind of in that same vein there are lottery scams where folks are indicated or they receive something in the mail or there's a phone call.

They have won the lottery and they are going to be getting five thousand dollars ten thousand dollars.

But first before we can send the money to you, we need to have you pay the tax on that so there's going to be tax that's due on that lottery winning.

>> So if you would please let us know your information and let us know your account number will draw the money from that account so that you can pay the taxes that are due on this and then within so many days we'll make a deposit check.

I've also seen it where there's an actual check that's mailed to them.

They deposit it.

Folks think that it's real immediately thereafter they're sending a check off to pay those taxes because they just deposited that X dollar check into their account and the bank in essence is waiting for it to process.

>> It's not a real check.

It's a scam that's too good to be true.

>> It's too good to be true.

It money does not fall from the sky because you're a good person.

>> Unfortunately you're taken advantage of by those folks.

Exactly.

Exactly.

This one that I got and this came in an email I have not gotten this one before but it says that I have my subscription has been renewed for four something I don't know what it was for three years.

>> Oh for three years and the payment is seven hundred and ninety nine dollars and the tiny little print at the bottom says you know if you feel this is wrong or I don't whatever then call this number whatever to unsubscribe but like people have probably if you can if you have a lot of expenses maybe you think oh that's probably the magazine I forgot that I'm getting or something right.

>> So that's again if you're looking at it it doesn't sound familiar.

I can't imagine I paid seven eight hundred dollars for a magazine subscription stop take a beat really think about it and process it.

What's important to is for folks to surround themselves with others that they trust that are trustworthy people that if they something comes up and it sounds too good to be true if they're getting a phone call they're getting harassed to send money or requested to send money reach out to that person that is that trusted person in your life that trusted contact and what we encourage our seniors to do is to establish those relationships with trusted people before they get to the point of really not quite understanding what's going on before they're really especially vulnerable.

You want to establish those relationships early on.

One of the suggestions too is to make sure that you stay socially active and you're around other people that you can talk about.

>> Are you here have you heard this before?

Does this sound genuine?

Yeah.

So you're not you're not by yourself and in your own thoughts and thinking, gosh, somebody is reaching out to me.

They're showing me affection .

Somebody is calling me it's so nice to have someone to talk to on a regular basis.

There's an instance where a gentleman who is being contacted by allegedly a young woman and she had small children and she was struggling to pay for the groceries and put food on the table.

So he was sending small dollar amounts and so that process was started to get more and more money and individual as it went along the amount she needed became more became greater so the person had a good heart was doing felt that they were doing a good thing.

>> They were lonely maybe.

And at the end of the day though that wasn't the situation they were being taken advantage of .

>> So you want to surround yourself with good people.

You want to try and stay socially active, have a group with whom you can speak and ask does this sound real?

Have you heard this?

>> Some suggestions are that even with your Social Security you can have a Social Security pay designee so that person could collect your social again.

>> A trusted person would be able to receive the funds so that you're not being taken advantage of there.

>> Sometimes folks are encouraged to move into a community.

>> It's maybe a 55 and older community.

So you have folks that are around you.

You have the community itself may be protected who can come and go right so that you're not interested advantage if there's probably communication I mean they're sharing with the rest of the people in the community this scam is going on exactly right.

>> Thomas hi.

Thomas Thomas is watching us here tonight on LIFE Ahead.

>> Thomas, you have a question for Brian?

I did.

I'm a small business owner and I've had several different people.

It's like a Somalian accent telling me that they have a home in the Fort Wayne area and they want four or five ceiling sounds installed.

Do I accept checks?

Well, first time I gave them my address they mailed me a check in advance and paid me and somehow my bank said the check was a fraud but right.

They they try that a lot like you know seventeen hundred thirty two hundred dollar check or whatever and somehow explain how that whole scam works because it seems like you know, they're wanting me to do the work and I go to an address nobody's there.

You're never there key and right now well not enough sure.

>> So Thomas I'm first I'm sad that that's happened to you but I think we should gather from tonight's conversation is that it happens very frequently and to a lot of people it's not just you.

This is something that's happening on a very regular basis.

Sandy is giving you examples of experiences she's had I giving you examples of the things that have happened with me and within my family with clients.

>> It's very common.

So thank you very much for saying that that's happened to you.

But it would be uncommon.

So we're going to think about that situation.

It would be uncommon for someone to say before I've met you, before you've come and done the work, I'm going to send you payment.

So what happens?

So that's the first step.

Does this make sense?

Do I typically am I typically paid in advance of doing that handyman work that you're referencing hanging in those ceiling fans know typically folks would pay you after you've done the work.

So that's our first thing that we want to look at.

Secondly, what they're wanting you to do is deposit that check.

You deposit the check and sometimes what happens is people will draw against that check.

Right.

So it must be good.

This check is good.

So I'm going to draw against take that money.

I trust them normally with the check being deposited it there's something that goes along with it.

You're going to be returning funds to them so I'm paying you a check.

So you've told me the fan is five hundred dollars to install I'm going to send you a seventeen hundred dollar check just cut you a check back for the difference between the five hundred and seventeen hundred dollar check that I've sent to you and you've you've made the check it's deposited the bank is waiting for it to clear in the interim you're sending payment to them.

So that's oftentimes what happens with the check schemes, the lottery schemes, all of that kind of in the same vein.

>> Yeah, it's so sad.

Thomas, thank you so much for calling tonight and sharing your story.

And as Brian mentioned, probably every one of you that's watching tonight have had some sort of a situation whether it's, you know, mail or phone call or whatever that is attempted scam.

>> True.

How much money you talked about romance between how much is lost every year for that literally billions.

>> Billions do you know just scams in general how much money lost?

>> The number that I have from the FBI is three point four billion in twenty twenty three.

So I only have partial numbers for twenty twenty four obviously nothing for twenty twenty five yet but I think too we should think ahead not only how much money is being lost but how else can we protect ourselves.

So one of the things that you may consider doing we talk on the show you've heard other attorneys talking for myself talk about trusts there are living trusts just a basic living trust that could be prepared that not only are you the trustee perhaps a trusted person in your life is also a trustee.

You have those trusts sometimes we built in something called a trust advisor where they can remove somebody if they were taking advantage of their position as a trustee.

But you want to build something where somebody else can step in can help protect your money.

Yeah, And can be a gatekeeper to those funds being lost.

So first is always to think about it.

Does it is this right?

Is it if it's too good to be true if I'm the small business owner and somebody sending me a check for seventy two hundred dollars before I've done any work and they're asking me to send a little bit money back to them that isn't normal.

That's not normal behavior.

So we want to listen to that phone call.

Is it normal in my life have I had someone reach out to me out of the blue that I've never met before saying that they love me and they need my help and they have small children or those types of things going on.

So surround yourself with good people.

Don't isolate yourself.

Get those documents set up in advance so that if someboy needs to help you they can help you out and share your information like Thomas shared his story tonight.

You know, if you have something going on like we both talked about, we've gotten lucky.

>> Was it text?

Is that how it came?

I received the text I received a text regarding Toll this week.

I received a letter you've received apparently two texts email some postcards in the mail family member was on the television what phone number to call regarding getting their TV working again.

>> They're very clever, very clever, very clever and the toll road one by the way is very common right now and that's when they're going to call you or text you and tell you you owe X number of dollars for toll road fees for 80 90 and I haven't been on eighty ninety five years so I knew that one was a scam.

>> Thank you for watching and I hope you have learned a lot here that might protect you.

Brian, thank you for sharing.

Thank you Sandy .

Appreciate it.

All right.

We'll see you next Wednesday night.

Seven thirty right here.

No scam no scam Nugen Law; focusing on estate planning and elder care law, emphasizing independence and quality of life.

Serving Indiana, Ohio, Michigan, and Florida.

More information at NugenLaw.com.