Beers Mallers - Elder law attorneys providing information on legal matters of guardianship and financial issues relating to nursing home care.

Beers Mallers attorneys can also assist with Medicaid requirements and help navigate difficult family situations.

Beers Mallers - Attorneys at law with offices in Fort Wayne, LaGrange and on the web at BeersMallers.com.

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Good evening.

I'm Sandy Thomson.

The host of our show lies ahead tonight but our real star is our sitting here in the set with me and I'll introduce you in just a moment.

>> Our topic is going to be something you maybe don't like to talk about but you need to with your family.

>> We're going to talk about managing your end of life affairs from a legal point of view and from a funeral point of view.

Now if you have some questions, we would love for you to give us a call and I can have our guest to answer those for you so you'll get some professional help right here on LIFE Ahead.

OK, let's meet our guest on the end is Troy Kiefer no stranger to us.

>> Welcome back.

>> Hi.

Thank you.

It's very nice to be here.

Troy has been on LIFE Ahead a number of times so he knows the program here and Troy likes to get questions too.

>> So please give us a call (969) 27 twenty and Lisa Shinkle, nice to see you, Lisa.

>> Yeah, nice to be here.

Sandy and Lisa works for a funeral company and she is a prearrangement counselor.

>> What does that mean, Lisa, in layman's terms?

Yeah, so I'm honored to be able to sit down with people typically around that retirement time and just plan what do they want for their family and what what what do they want?

Burial, cremation.

We go through everything and then we assemble all the information that we're going to need at the time for things like death certificate, et cetera and then and then we talk about how do we want to financially take care of it so our family doesn't have to worry about it.

>> Isn't that that pre arranging your funeral or you're somebody in your family's funeral you're getting to be more common?

>> Yeah, I feel like it was taboo a long time ago like people didn't want to talk about it but now like I said, it's just a it's a box on your checklist.

You when you retire a lot of times people do even before they just want to take care of things while they have money and typically people don't have more money at ninety than they did when they were retiring or well they were working all right.

>> And you get them Troy later now you're Lisa and the funeral home.

>> So take care of the immediate decisions and we'll talk about what those are and then a little later you end up going to an attorney and taking care of the will and starting to plan how to handle the estate.

Troy, what's your recommendation of when somebody should contact an attorney?

>> Well, when it comes to estate planning there is no wrong time to contact an attorney any time is a good time to talk about your your wills, powers of attorney, appointments of health care representative we typically see three times though when just naturally people seek out an attorney to update their documents.

The first time is when a young couple has children.

Yeah.

And then the second time would be when the couple starts to approach retirement they start thinking about end of life decisions and then the third time typically then is later in life when people are into their eighties and nineties and I think they come to the conclusion it's either now or never and so we see a good deal of people at that time as well.

But any time is a great time to talk to an attorney because we don't know when that last opportunity is going to be.

>> Yeah, there's that big question mark which you know, affects a lot of our decisions whether or not you get life insurance, whether or not to buy a new car.

>> I mean, you know, you just don't know what that future is going to be.

>> Let's say that that somebody has planned their funeral.

Somebody passes you know, grandma passed away.

>> They have a funeral and then when do they come and see you or an attorney?

>> I usually advise people to take some time after a loved and passes away.

>> There is usually it would be rare to have something legal that needed to be done right away.

Yeah.

So I tell people take time to be with family grieve, laugh, cry.

Remember your loved one that's far more important than running to the attorney to get their estate up and running.

It's going to be their you think but it's better to just take some personal time and be with family and that's the important thing because all of those other decisions are not of an immediate nature and you're probably thinking well gee, I should call the attorney right away and see about the will and everything but not necessary.

Oh no.

OK, let's go back to you later, OK?

So many things you do in pre planning.

>> What are some of the major things people do when they come to you or to preplanning counselor to make decisions?

What kind of things do you have?

Yes, Yeah.

So well number one, the first thing and probably the hardest thing to do is just make the appointment just coming in and sitting down with us is probably the hardest thing that I know that I hear and once people are in sitting down they they just feel so much well number one they feel so much better that they are doing it but but now they have the information and I always I've noticed and I've personally experienced that when you educate yourself on something it's less scary.

Right?

Yeah.

So so one of the things that well I do everything in three steps because I just feel like three is just an easier number to remember and it's just it makes things go so much easier.

But before I even go through those with people I ask what is their goal?

>> What do they want from me?

I want the person for themselves family member.

>> Yeah exactly.

I sit down in the first thing.

I just want to make sure that we're on the same page.

I don't want to put what I think on them.

I really want them in their ideas to be guiding that conversation but within those three steps so we can move things forward.

>> Yeah so I always pretend like if something happened yesterday where would your family be at today?

So we're going to be making some decisions and asking questions that that they would be asked and and really we're just the fruit of that first conversation is you have your toe in the water, you know, and and then we slowly get get more comfortable.

So first thing we do is just assemble all that basic information, things that we need for the death certificate to initiate that to get with Social Security.

There's lots of other paperwork that can go with it depending on if you're being buried or if you're being cremated.

And so what we do is just really make sure that when the family comes in a funeral director has everything that he or she needs to best serve that family in a timely manner so they're not there as long as they may be.

If your family member didn't didn't do anything so and the next step is we talk through the process.

So what do you want or and I and I always kind to joke people don't even know you don't know what you don't know.

So when we sit down it's not like you have a lot of practice planning.

>> Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

And it's not something that people want to talk about but like we've carved out this time to sit down and and I get to I get to educate people sometimes it's a hard conversation, sometimes it's really easy but it's better to do it now than after someone dies so a lot easier so we go through that and then and then as we go through that we talk about all the services we talk about all the merchandise things that people would need depending on their choices and then and then we talk about some outside costs too, you know.

So so yeah.

So yeah.

So things like the death certificate oh we will get that for a family you know so if they need ten we'll go get ten.

Yeah it makes it a lot easier for them.

They don't have to go downtown they've been here before they can pick those up easily we get it we will you know help write that obituary in the newspapers .

>> Is that required mandated?

No it's not mandated not by us unless there's some reason that it would be mandated on from somebody else.

But no, right now even just a simple line in the newspaper there's a fee so in its per line and that changes.

Oh OK.

It's not typically going down so it's a nice thing to make sure you if you do want that that you're you're putting some you know we talk about that and we put that in that in that in that the cost estimate what do you call the it's not a program but a leaflet.

>> Yeah.

The memorial what we call it the memorial package so it's OK typically like the book that people will sign in as they come in and then we have a memorial folder sometimes they're like half a page folded or sometimes a full page folded ,sometimes prayer cards and then a lot of times that that will be personalized for the person along with thank you notes for that family and we've put it together real nice for them so that they have all all those thank you notes and all the memorial folders of people that might have given memorials to a foundation or a group.

>> Do you take care of forwarding those on then or well you believe yeah, we make sure that the family gets those so after the service we hold tight on that and make sure that within that box that the family gets that there it's all in there and it gets to the right person.

>> Got it.

All right, let's legal if we could Roy so what about the information that has to go out, you know whether or not you have to put it in the paper and I know that you attorneys before have said that you have to put something in so that any people but you owe money to can get that in.

>> Yeah, yeah.

What you're talking about would be the probate estate administration process and it's one of those things that it's good public policy that when someone passes away they probably should pay their debts just as a society we've agreed that that's what needs to happen.

So yeah, there's a special process where creditors can make a claim against the estate and they're put on notice through the newspaper.

>> OK, all right.

But it doesn't have to be a certain length.

The the notice is a notice.

Yeah, well it's not the obituary.

It's back.

>> No it's separate the legal notice section the classifieds got it.

And you know, kind of a strange thing nowadays because not that many people get the newspaper anymore but yet there are requirements if one has to be put in the newspaper, how do you let people know if they don't take a paper?

Well, if if we know about creditors then we do notify them directly.

OK, OK.

But if we don't know about them and they don't reply to the notice if they don't respond within three months they're out of luck.

>> They're forever barred.

Too late now, too late now we have a phone call here and I'm thinking we're going to have a number of phone calls so get get in line on our phone right now we have an operator back in the control room.

>> OK, this is from James and James says What if someone wrote down their last wishes on paper without it being seen by a lawyer?

>> Hmm.

OK, Troy, this is going to be for you and then they passed away.

>> Is that handwritten note considered a legal document?

>> What do you say, Troy?

Well, like everything in law depends on the situation and it's a common case in law school where a farmer had a tractor turn over on him.

It did not kill him immediately but he knew he was going to pass away and he had a screwdriver or something and actually wrote what might be determined to be a will in the paint on the tractor.

Well, yes.

And that was deemed to be because of the circumstance a legitimate well.

Oh really?

Yeah.

Even if even if no one witnessed him doing that.

>> Yeah well because it was pretty clear he had done it and he had done it in contemplation of his immediate demise.

Yeah but if if someone doesn't have those special circumstances and they just write down that information on a piece of paper most likely it will not be considered to be a effect effective will.

>> OK, so that answer James question about that.

So make sure you get to legal counsel for that.

>> Judy, thank you for calling.

And Judy says My sister in law lost her husband.

>> What should she do with his medical records?

>> Good question.

Do you do you have any advice, Lisa?

Well, not a legal one but I if I didn't have any affection towards them, I'd probably shred them.

But but that's good.

>> What do you think?

Are you advising that or what?

>> I mean is there anything that she's going to need later or the sister in law?

Well, immediately my attorney mind goes too well.

Did something happen that perhaps there could be litigation or an accident?

Is there any concern about the treatment that the person received in the health care facility and all that's evidence that might speak to that.

>> So it might not be a bad idea to hold on to that for seven years and seven years ?

It's a good rule of thumb.

There are various statutes of limitations on different types of things.

But if you know that's what I would advise now you don't want to keep 30 banker's boxes worth of medical records.

Yeah, necessarily.

But if it's a small amount you don't mind storing it.

I would advise people to hang onto that for for some years.

>> OK, all right.

That makes good good sense and thank you again, Judy for watching LIFE Ahead again (969) 27 20 is our phone number here and we'd love to hear your question for our panel here tonight.

>> Lisa, let's go back to planning making prearrangements for the funeral, OK?

>> Is it different for regular burial than it is for being cremated or how does that work?

Yeah.

So different.

No, just a different amount.

>> You know, I'd say burial is a bit more straightforward if you choose cremation you have a lot more options with regard to what you can have.

>> What do you mean?

Oh OK. Well I mean for burial you can be buried you know so that's what happens if your caskets buried or placed in a mausoleum for for cremation.

It's just a bigger conversation because for us a lot of people choose to rent a casket.

They choose to you could do that.

>> You have a typical like your traditional services and then you so you'll have your your viewing your visitation and then followed by your service and then instead of going to the cemetery after that service you come back with us because you can't be cremated until the death certificate comes through and that takes up to one to two weeks depending on the situation if not more depending on the situation.

>> Yeah.

So we wait until we get that and after the death certificate comes through then then the person come from the state or word of it come from I know it's a county thing so county OK so then you oh this is a little uncomfortable sometimes here but you keep them body until you get the death certificate at the funeral home .

>> Yeah we we care for care for the body until that death certificate.

>> Yeah yeah.

Everybody's treated with dignity and respect while they're in our care so of course I mean the people that that do this they they've been called to do this so you know everybody in this industry that's that's how we do things.

>> So yeah I love that and talking before the show too that there's great care and great concern for the families and and their feelings and it's treated with great respect.

>> Jill, that's called in thank you Jill for calling.

>> Jill says My parents prearranged their funeral with one home but can it be transferred to another?

Oh, I see with one funeral home but can it be transferred to another funeral home?

I don't know either of you like to take that because I all the time yeah.

>> So we so whether you transfer whether you prearranged in Florida or whether you prearranged across town that money that you have placed in a funeral trust an irrevocable funeral trust is its it's yours you get to take it where you want to ok OK. >> And so when we do a transfer let's just say someone moved across town and it happens every day they come in and the money stays with the the money stays with the trust company but we just take the other funeral homes name off and we put ours we of course we're going to look at what what was done and make sure we understand and we can do that of course and we always can.

But yeah, we we definitely do that almost every day.

>> Oh OK.

So it's not an unusual thing.

>> No thank you for that question but either way anything to add on it through legally do you have to do anything?

>> Well no not not legally they pretty much the trust itself we talk about it's transferable already but since we're talking about payment one of the things I see all the time is people when they come in to talk about their estate planning, I ask if they've prearranged or prepaid or funerals and they say no but I have a life insurance policy document that will pay for that and and of course you have some opinions on that as to whether or not that's a a good idea.

>> Yeah.

Yeah well I mean it's it's just for us it's not the simplest way.

So when I sit down with someone my my goal is to whatever I say is going to happen OK so in the way we do that is we set up like I just said, the irrevocable funeral trust and what that does is it protects that money from that inevitable inevitable moment.

>> Right.

So so I always say it's like we're born here, we're going to die here and we don't know how much and we don't know we don't know when.

So when you sit down in PREARRANGE what you're doing is you're placing that money into that trust to make sure 100 percent it moves forward at death.

Another thing we didn't talk about and I will get back to the insurance and how that how that would play out but you get a guarantee so that's going to be something else you do not get when you have like an outside funeral or an outside insurance policy you get a guarantee on the services and merchandise that you selected.

So if you're doing this when you're 50 and you live to a hundred and you have fifty years of inflation that you've avoided and it's been readily available for your family no matter what could have happened throughout those years because again we don't know don't know how much you know when so really it's just that responsible thing to do.

But as far as insurance I mean I have insurance and I have it for reasons not not for my funeral because there's other options that are better.

But what happens is when people think that that's going to help, it's just it's not life proofing.

It's not a hundred aren't going to be there.

And the shock I get from people when they say that to me sometimes is disbelief.

I had a gentleman do that one time he goes Yeah, I'm going to I'll be OK. And then literally three years later he came back and he said his his wife had Alzheimer's.

She was going into the nursing home and he couldn't keep it any longer because it had cash value that put her above the the Medicaid Max.

Yeah and yeah.

And so because of that what he thought was going to pay for things what he thought was going to be there.

>> Yeah.

Yeah.

And other things you might take out a loan off that you might not be able to pay the premiums you may not have understood the language in you know because you know he did it so many years ago that all of a sudden you don't have it anymore.

>> It inspires.

>> So you're betting you're dying and they're betting your living.

So this thing is just taking care of it no matter what.

>> So insurance.

Yeah, yeah.

Just from just from a practical standpoint when you walk into a funeral home you don't have cash in hand from the life insurance policy it takes time.

>> Yeah well it comes back to the death certificate so you're looking at one to two weeks to get the death certificate and then up to a week for the or more for the life insurance company to pay out.

>> That's a really good point.

That's a really good point because the funeral directors I mean the bill is due that day so a lot of times families will just pay it and then if when the estate opens after they've met with their lawyer and receive their death certificate ,they they may be paid back maybe maybe not.

I don't know.

I don't know.

Nobody's obligated to give that person if they aren't on that.

>> But it's good to know that you do have to pay.

Do you have the funeral?

>> You can't wait for that life insurance or anything.

Talk about Medicaid a little bit with me.

Troy, what if somebody who is on Medicaid is there something they need or legal documents for funeral planning?

>> Well, typically when we encounter funeral planning would be when we were trying to preserve assets if in order for someone to to become eligible for Medicaid and an irrevocable funeral trust like we've been talking about.

Yeah, Is an exempt asset.

So if you can that's one of the first things that we talk about with people is that if they can put some of their assets into that trust it'll be there for them when they need it.

>> OK, we have an interesting question coming up here.

This is for you, Lisa.

>> This is Jerry.

Jerry, thank you for watching us here tonight or like the head and Jerry says if you want cremation, how would you plan to transfer the body to another state?

OK, so if you want cremation, how would you like so are we assuming they if you wanted to be buried elsewhere after you are cremated or you died somewhere and you needed you wanted to bring your body back to be cremated?

>> Well, there's a couple different ways I'm interpreting that.

>> But maybe you'd be cremated here or die but then you have the yeah.

The body OK. Yeah let's say that happens or let's just say your favorite place was Colorado and then you were cremated here and you your wish was to be taken out to Colorado for burial or whatever that would be the funeral director will put the paperwork to allow you to go across state lines in in the end with the so you'll have that and that's a discussion you'd have with your funeral director.

>> OK, good good question.

Jerry, any any last comments or recommendations?

>> Troy as an attorney you'd make to our viewers?

>> Well, just one quick one.

Indiana law changed in regards to the appointment of health care represented.

OK, and now if you've prepared that document since that law changed a few years ago, that health care representative could very well have some authority to make decisions after you pass away.

OK, so it's something to look into.

>> Talk to me about something that you need to sign off on.

You need a legal document, right?

OK, that's good advice for sure.

And something that's again a fairly recent thing.

>> Troy, thank you for being here and thank you for inviting Lisa.

You've given us a lot of thought.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Let's see could we just go playing our roles here still I'd be honored to help you.

Thank you so much, Lisa Shinkle and thank you all for watching us here on LIFE Ahead.

>> And of course we'll be back next Wednesday night at seven thirty with another topic and another gas.

>> Good night.

Have a good evening Beers Mallers - Elder law attorneys providing information on legal matters of guardianship and financial issues relating to nursing home care.

Beers Mallers attorneys can also assist with Medicaid requirements and help navigate difficult family situations.

Beers Mallers - Attorneys at law with offices in Fort Wayne, LaGrange and on the web at BeersMallers.com.