as the 2025 Indiana General Assembly enters its final phase two legislative reveals this week held most of the headlines in the House members advance to property tax relief package through an amended version of Senate Bill one in the Senate.

>> The appropriation Committee brought forth its plan for a new state budget.

Other highlights include the passage of bills enhancing oversight of Indiana's waters.

>> Also legislation involved with paring down the state's individual income tax as conditions are met that beginning in 2030 and also analyzing any cost savings if Indiana were to require all counties move from traditional precinct based voting to a vote center model.

>> Well, our guests offer their perspective from their respective legislative chambers on all this and more next on this week's Prime time.

And good evening.

Umbers has with us this week our 13th District Republican state senator and Assistant President Pro Tem Sue Glik and Eightieths district Democratic State Representative and House Democratic leader Phil Geia Quinter and we invite you to join our conversation.

Just call in your questions or comments by using the number that you see on the screen and as we're widened out here, Senator Glik Representative Jim aquiver Sue Phil, thanks for joining us.

>> Thank you, Bruce .

Always good to be here.

So it's been reported that Senate Bill one on property tax reform was 46 pages when it was first introduced by Governor Mike Brown.

It grew in the Senate to 91 pages and when the House unveiled its measure this week it was more than 350 pages.

What I'm wondering is what do each of you see as you work your way through the pages of the bill?

>> So I'll start with you.

Well, it's changed substantially obviously grow like grown, you know, exponentially whenever you see a lot of minutia that's in there that's been added and that's because I liken it to tinkering with an engine to those mechanics out there.

>> You start moving over here and you change things and then you start shifting back and forth.

But the the real problem is that when you move too far in any direction, the average idea was to do away with property taxes.

>> But then you have to look at the school.

You have to look at the municipalities, towns, cities, all of those rely on on property taxes to to survive.

And if you cut that off there's no replacement or you have to figure out how to replacement replace it and many of the mayors immediately let us know that counties and and county government council and commissioners made us aware of the fact they can't make it up with local income tax and that's not really fair to all you're doing is shifting.

We're taking money out of this pocket now.

We're taking it out of here.

But the taxpayers aren't going to realize any any savings if you do it that way you really have to be scientific in how you do it and and adjust it so no one gets hit too hard.

>> Feel your sense of it so far you stole my line by yeah.

>> So what happened was in House and the Ways and Means Committee in the House there were two bills Senate bill one the Senate bill five eighteen.

That's a reason the number of pages and we talk about how this growth has grown particularly so when you add language you add another bill to the Senate bill, one which was taking Senate Bill five eighteen and adding it to one.

>> So essentially I'll talk about five seconds kind of take up the whole show talking about this issue by itself.

>> But Senate Bill one is trying to, you know, look for ways to reduce reduce property tax and part of the problem is the reliance on property taxes having to do with the personal business personal property tax business property tax.

>> So that was I think in the original Senate then one might have been all eliminated altogether which wasn't going to be a big hit to local governments.

So they scaled that back so that the hit won't be as as as difficult.

And so but in the end what you really have is trying to well you're trying to lower property taxes.

You're right, Senator.

Right.

There has to be ways to sort of for local government to make that up.

>> And so it kind of really in a way at and it just becomes sort of a philosophy on what you think do we want to be solely reliant on property taxes not solely but reliant on property taxes?

Look option income taxes, sales taxes, all kinds of things.

And so when we talk about yeah.

Lowering one thing and so I remember one time to steal one of your lines about kind of waving the pom poms because we can easily say hey we cut your taxes but on the other hand then local government left to sort of pick up the pieces and they're going to have to have to raise taxes if they want to keep the services and things that I think most citizens have come to expect and then and then and in that same vein on that within the kind of the Senate bill one language the hit to not only local government but part of that of course schools and just looking at the numbers again between today and yesterday over the course what I saw the fiscal note said over the course of three years 26, 27, 28 can be 12 around 12 to 13 million hit performing schools.

>> I looked at my own district and around six million for East community schools.

So so you're away and really they're left without the mechanisms to find more revenue like the like local governments can do now.

Senate Bill five 18 which was amended in the Senate bill one basically that has to do with that kind of that revenue sharing piece so they you know, there's there's a lot of charter schools.

We don't really have a lot of charter schools in northeast Indiana there's two and Allen County but basically when when a school system wants to put up a referendum that if it's passed they have to share some of that.

>> They have to share a piece of that Schepper piece of the referendum, the money that they would receive from that increase that would have to be shared with the charter schools .

That's something that probably ran in I believe ran into some trouble on its own.

So which is why they probably frankly as a strategy to put it in the Senate bill one.

So that's something I think that in my opinion I mean it just feels like they're going to they're going to ask for more they're going to increase their ask in a referendum because they know they're going to have to share that money with potentially other charter schools and and then and by the way, who paid for that that goes back on property tax rolls.

>> So I feel like we're back to back where we started.

>> So that's kind of it and that Joe and I did meet them.

No, not all the I'm glad you I'm glad you did the the sad part about it is when people look at their tax statement they see everything above the line and they say well my taxes went up but you have to look down at the bottom where it says there's a school referendum, there's, you know, special assessments or you know, they go to these particular taxing districts which are outside the levies, if you will.

And I think the desire in Indianapolis at the General Assembly is trying to get off that the idea of the levy and talk about rates so people can understand their taxes when you get your taxes you don't know why you're paying so much the the hope in Senate the Senate bill one as it stands right now is that 60 70 percent of the people in Indiana are going to see their property taxes go down now it's not it's not going to all go away.

>> Don't don't get that in your head but it is going to go down there's going to be significant savings but that still leaves a third of the people whose whose taxes are not going to go down and they're not going to be happy and you know, they're saying someone else, you know, enjoy that.

However, you have to remember they're in an area or they're in a taxing unit if you will, where there's additional expenses or their property has increased in value substantially.

>> And as we do it right now as the tax you know, taxes are figured they simply knew they would realize more gain if they sold.

But for many people especially the elderly or someone who does not want to sell, they're not in the market to sell.

They're very upset because they're paying taxes on a house they bought for a low amount or lower amount and now they're being taxed at a substantially inflated value and it's kind of a perfect storm as we're sitting around in an in a time when when the housing is there are shortages in housing and homes are significantly increasing as young families move into the housing market.

They went to three bedrooms or more.

They you know, they're pushing driving the forces to kind of increase the value of some of those older homes and it's very difficult from for many people that's why we build into to the the deductions for senior citizens and veterans and some of those.

>> So I'm glad you're mentioning that because we have Chris calling with an off line question first thanking you both for talking about property taxes and then saying what are your thoughts on not requiring senior citizens to pay property tax once they're on a fixed income fairly well and you might want to talk about that just because it was in the believers in the original Senate bill one.

So there are simply news for folks over the age of of sixty five and without getting too I don't get too much into the specifics but there is some protections er for those over 65 now and we also know that there's some interesting language in there for for veterans as well as some other you can't claim both you know you can't do do both but certainly there's different ways for specific carve outs needs if you will for for not only veterans for those over 65 as well.

>> And what we're talking is a credit which comes off at a different location than your deduction.

It actually comes off and you're talking about two hundred fifty dollars maximum credit but it's a direct reduction in in taxes and it will go to the the senior citizens.

It will go to to veterans if they're veterans with a disability of at least 10 percent and totally disabled veterans will have that right now their maximum is something in the neighborhood of it came out to I believe two hundred and forty nine was maximum.

>> It'll bump it up a little but it also will be a standard deduction that are standard credit that they can take.

So you know there's some compensation but the confusion is a lot of different categories which we've done in the past and many people missed out on those because they simply either didn't or they were there or they weren't aware that they could claim and we want to simplify it in such a manner that they can understand their tax bill and and reduce it for the majority of Hoosiers.

>> You probably want to move on and I'm happy to do so.

But I will say kind of going into this in fact I just found out last week my property tax rate actually went down four hundred dollars this year.

So I have not received over the course of the year you know, look, we all get nobody wants to pay taxes of any kind or with any increases of course.

But we need to need to course for services that we receive things like police, fire, those sorts of things.

But my my biggest concern is that the the maximum is at three hundred dollars I think you'll receive I don't know if folks will even hit that amount and then again is that sort of offset by what locals will be able to do because we there are things in the bill now that they will be able to increase where they were talking about the rates where they were used to be able to go up to this much of a of a of a taxing the limit.

>> It's been extended so there will be some I assume down the road again if cities and local government want to maintain the services that they have now, they're going to have to increase their their local option income taxes.

>> So to make up for the loss in property tax revenue if it isn't a happy ending, how much closer are we to a workable ending with what we have before us that is working its way from the house soon back to the Senate if the road to reform is from here to there, how close to there are we?

>> Well, I think we're much closer than we were we're at Second Reading Amendment.

So anything I mean through the the Senate now has to be voted on on Monday.

Second reading in this is is when you can still make amendments to a bill, you can offer amendments to a bill.

It goes to third reading Final Four thirds meaning that bill is going to be voted up or down yes or no.

We're taking it as it stands on that day.

If it's not voted on on Tuesday, it's dead for the session.

But just because we pass it the Senate doesn't mean it's it's automatically law because what happens after that if there's been any changes in in the Senate and same in the House, if there's been any changes or bills in the House, then they have what they call conference committee and so two senators and two House members, one from each party meet in conference committee and they iron out the differences and those bills.

And so there's still portions of the bills that may change in order to get a consensus of both houses and then it will be only then will it go to the governor and he gets the final up or no up or down on that on that bill.

>> Well, our final day like yours for final passage of all bills is Tuesday and bills that can be amended of course is Monday.

>> So we don't have as many you know, it's funny when you when the bills switch, what do we I think we file I don't know how many each side file what eighteen hundred in the house or something like that.

>> We you only think well you only sent us one hundred fifty so we appreciate that we wouldn't want all the ones that you file to come our way so so we're really you're dealing with a much much smaller number of bills and so our calendar is a little bit less you've got the budget a second reading second reading excuse me for the budget on Monday and that'll be very interesting to watch to.

So I like as I said earlier we were talking earlier I like the Senate version of the budget better than I was first and we'll see what happens and we will tee up a conversation about the budget in just a moment.

We want to bring Geoff's offline question here and he says Thank you, Senator Glik for your work in water conservation.

>> Last week you had a chance to speak about nuclear power.

>> What are your thoughts on meeting our energy needs?

>> Well, you know, for all of us as our population grows in some areas and it changes over time and what our needs are, we've got to make sure people have the energy that they need and we we have to develop our transmission on our delivery system, accommodate all of the economic development that we're we're attempting here in Indiana and there's a lot of growth and so we can't do it on just conventional buildout.

It's not going to happen with just solar and water.

It's just that's not it or wind .

>> It's going to be a combination of many factors and as we move away from traditional like coal fired generators, we're looking at a lot of different options.

>> There are groups are working on hydrogen and issues, you know, having to do with the generation and delivery of hydrogen and how that can be done effectively.

>> Nuclear is a source of of energy Indiana Michigan has come up with a plan they wish to change a coal fired plant down and I think it's the Petersburg area from coal fired to a small modular reactor.

It's larger than you would have like on a submarine or an aircraft carrier but they've proved to be in most cases very safe, very effective and deliver a good deal of power.

But even though they're starting the process now they have a a ramp, they have a run up to that and it's going to take seven to 10 years to get it online and generating electricity.

So we need you we need to augment that in some fashion or another to make sure we have good, clean, safe energy but to serve our needs and and there's going to be a lot of talk and in the coming years not just session but going forward about connecting all of our data centers, all of our new plants around the state of Indiana.

I was in a meeting today.

They were crane people which is the Naval Surface Weapons Center and southern Indiana southwest Indiana and they're working on all kinds of of expansion down there.

They're west gate area and all of that that technology center all of it is depending on the delivery of more energy to them as many of our businesses and and our economic development is being driven around the state and they're talking transmission lines covering Fort Wayne and radiothon and your military defense technology all the way over to the research park at Purdue all the way down to Krein including Indianapolis and some other areas that have substantial development.

So it isn't just a local problem.

It's just not a small town problem.

It's a state of Indiana.

As we grow we have needs that have to be met and that's part of the the responsibility the General Assembly to anticipate it and move in that direction.

Nuclear power as an option may not be the answer for everyone but it's certainly on the table.

>> Will bills like think it's house ten or seven I think on small modular reactors will that move forward?

>> Oh yeah.

Well there's actually more Mather's there's some Senate bills as well dealing with this issue and the certainly right I mean the companies are moving away from coal fired energy and and moving more toward cleaner clean energy as we like to call it when wind solar, nuclear the the issue I think when we build these facilities and they've been a little slow to kind of get off the ground, if you will, throughout the country.

But what's the cost to the ratepayers that's been that been kind of a contentious issue.

You know, should can other the Googles of the world face all those folks that that are the ones that need the energy?

You know, is there more that we can that they can chip in, if you will, particularly in the startup of these where it can be so expensive to build these small reactors if you will?

And you know and that that that's kind of the sticking point I think with for me is you know what and I think for all of us really is you know, we want to make sure that the the rate payers aren't getting socked too too badly when they when they start the construction these right.

>> But but you're right.

All bills are moving forward pretty fast and something will happen.

>> And speaking of which, the other one is sort of moving forward, you know, in in yellow highlighter is job one for the General Assembly.

The states next to your spending plan, the Senate Appropriations Committee came out with its budget early in the week.

Some are reporting it that it is somewhat similar to the House save for the Senate maintaining the eligibility requirements for the school voucher program which the House has removed.

Let me get your thoughts in general or anything in particular regarding the Senate removed.

>> So that's the House budget took the cap off so there were there's no eligibility required for school vouchers.

>> Oh, excuse me.

>> That's correct.

And then the Senate the the budget that came out of committee on Thursday it'll be in fact very money keeps it at the level of twenty twenty three which is what we actually had an amendment to do just that so and then which frees up are really about one hundred roughly you never know how many folks are going to use it but they estimate about one hundred and seventeen hundred eighty dollars million real dollars and certainly can use that for other I mean most of us would probably argue family for making two hundred fifty three hundred K over that probably can afford it.

They've been you know affording it so far and then there's just some other thing particularly with virtual the funding for virtual charter schools which was an eighty percent house ticket up to 70 to 70 the house took it up to a hundred percent.

The Senate took it rolled it back about seventy five percent.

So there's some things in there and then the I know when I looked at the school run for go the Senate version it's around about a two percent increase which was better than the House version which was just flat line.

>> So go Senate and we have we have someone in the Senate who can get it for us also what's what's your sense of what you're hearing on the budget side of things?

>> Well, we're feeling better about it in the last few days and we see a a budget daily and and there are, you know, options and and amendments being offered along the way.

So we get the second reading deadline is tomorrow.

So it's going to be over at that point except for the conference committee if you will.

>> And then Wednesday you'd be in the third reading deadline.

But and the forecast that comes out and the yes, I was going to say the the financial forecast for the state of Indiana will come out on on Wednesday and that basically is going to be the bottom line as they describe it to me.

We start with what happens if the forecast is very, very low and that's one set of numbers.

What happens if the forecast is very, very high and then the the build that they're actually working where they penciled in some numbers and now they can when they see that forecast they will be able to say OK, we have to go with the low numbers and we have to trim some some fat out if there is any left and if it's a little bit better maybe we can add a little back in and and there's always things that we like to do if we had the revenue to do it.

>> There's some really good causes that maybe we have flat lined.

We have not increased because we simply didn't have the revenue forecasted to be able to do that and Indiana is required by the Constitution to to balance their budget.

We don't spend like the feds spend because we are required to balance our budget so so we have a little play there but we're not going to go wild with our spending it either way because we know A we don't have that money.

It doesn't look like that that budget forecast is going to be that way and too we really don't know what's happening in Washington is the federal government is saying we're doing away with the US Department of Education and what that means is many of those grants that come to our schools and are factored into their budgets and have been factored into our state budget for education may disappear.

We simply don't know with what's happening in Washington where that is and those are our kids and we need to invest in and one of our biggest resources and one of the most important resources.

So that's always in the back of our mind.

>> You know, what do we have to do?

How do we backfill any any shortfall?

Let me ask this.

>> We have about twenty five seconds apiece which is horrible to even ask a question .

>> But nevertheless what are you watching in these final couple of days that that you're looking to see move through legislatively?

>> Yeah, and I think the biggest thing is obviously the budget, the forecast there's some other issues out there that have been percolating with regards to school board elections.

Should they be partizans that would be kind of interesting to see how that rolls out.

So but I just I know this is your last live show but so before we and I just wanted to congratulate you on I don't know, 30 years for doing this.

>> I think I've been on it about a thousand times and I've I've enjoyed it every every every minute and it's been a lot fun.

>> Bruce , congratulations.

Well, I appreciate it.

The we all are learning together and going through these years right alongside and your information that you share coming back from Indianapolis to this region is a huge help for us all.

>> It flattens out our learning curve.

So I know she shares my congratulations.

Yes.

I do.

>> I want to join you.

That's one thing that bipartisan bipartisanism yes.

We appreciate it.

>> And this gives us an opportunity to talk to our our supporters and in in our critics as well to try to bring them up to speed on what's going on.

>> Well, thank you both so much .

We will go on that note for all of us with prime time, I'm Bruce Haines.

Thank you for watching.

Take care and we will see you soon.

Good night