>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT IS COMING UP.

>> THIS IS BAD, THE WORLD SAYING ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

>> I PLEDGE TO THE PALESTINIAN AND ISREALI PEOPLE THAT THERE CAN BE A BETTER FUTURE.

>> MORE WESTERN ALLIES RECOGNIZE A PALESTINIAN STATE.

I SPEAK WITH FRANCE'S FORMER PRIME MINISTER, DOMINICK, ABOUT HOW THE DIPLOMATIC TIDE IS TURNING.

THEN.

AS GAZA CITY FEELS THE FORCE OF ISRAEL'S OFFENSIVE.

WHAT CAN WE LEARN FROM FAILED PEACE TALK IT IS OF THE PAST.

I ASKED VETERAN NEGOTIATORS WHO SAY ROBERT ABOUT THEIR NEW BOOK, TOMORROW IS YESTERDAY.

ALSO AHEAD.

>> ARE WE JUST GOING TO CONCEDE THE FACT THAT WE ARE GOING TO, YOU KNOW, ESSENTIALLY SURRENDER THE WAR ON CANCER?

>> MILLIONS OF LIVES ON THE LINE.

JONATHAN FROM THE "NEW YORK TIMES" MAGAZINE TELLS US ABOUT THE REAL COST OF TRUMP'S CUTS.

> >> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATWOOD AND LESLI WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEYLAH AND MICKEY STRAUSS, MARK J., THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLOOM.

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

JEFFREY AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, WORLD LEADERS ARE GATHERING FOR THE U. N. ANNUAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY MEETING.

IT COMES AT ONE OF THE MOST TURBULENT TIMES IN ITS 80 YEAR HISTORY.

AMID GLOBAL POLARIZATION AND EMBOLDENED RUSSIAN LEADER RAPIDLY ADVANCING TECHNOLOGIES AND AN OVERHEATING PLANET.

THE FUTURE OF ISRAEL'S WAR IN GAZA IS TOP OF THE AGENDA.

THE UK, AUSTRALIA, CANADA, AND PORTUGAL, HAVE LED THE LATEST PUSH TO RECOGNIZE A PALESTINIAN STATE, WITH FRANCE SET TO JOIN THEM TODAY.

AT A SUMMIT, FRENCH PRESIDENT, EMMANUEL MACRON IS CONVENING ALONGSIDE SAUDI ARABIA.

THE HOPE IS TO REVIVE A TWO- STATE SOLUTION THAT SEEMS AS DISTANT AS EVER.

ISRAEL'S ASSAULT ON GAZA CITY IS INTENSIFYING AND TENS AND THOUSANDS OF PALESTINIANS ARE SCRAMBLING TO FLEE.

MANY WITH SIMPLY NOWHERE TO GO.

SO, CAN THIS FLURRY OF INTERNATIONAL RECOGNITION PUSH PAST SYMBOLIC GESTURE INTO ACTUAL LASTING SOLUTION?

LET'S BRING IN THE FORMER FRENCH PRIME MINISTER JOINING ME FROM PARIS.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

>> PRIME MINISTER, CAN I ASK YOU, DO YOU BELIEVE, I SEE YOU DO, AS YOU'RE FRENCH LEADER, THAT THIS WILL REVIVE A TWO- STATE SOLUTION PROCESS.

OR DO YOU THINK IT WOULD JUST GET MASSIVE BACKLASH FROM ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES, WHICH DOESN'T RECOGNIZE THIS MOVE.

>> WE HOPE THAT IT IS GOING TO BE A NEW DEPARTURE.

THIS DECISION TO RECOGNIZE THE STATE OF PALESTINE COMES BECAUSE OF THE FAILURE OF PREVIOUS PEACE PROCESSES.

WE'VE SEEN THEY ALSO PROCESS, THE ANNAPOLIS PROCESS, THEY ALL FAILED.

AND THE IDEA TODAY IS TO REVERSE THE FORMER PROCESS, NOT TO HAVE THE RECOGNITION AT THE END OF THE DAY, AFTER SOLVING ALL THE DIFFICULTIES.

BUT STARTING WITH THE RECOGNITION, WHICH IS A VERY STRONG GESTURE TO PALESTINE AND THE ARAB WORLD, AND OF COURSE, TRY NOW TO TACKLE ALL THE DIFFERENT PROBLEMS THAT WE ARE FACING, BUT STARTING WITH THE RECOGNITION.

BEHIND THE RECOGNITION, THERE ARE TWO PRINCIPLES THAT ARE CONCERNED.

THE FIRST ONE IS THE RESPECT OF INTERNATIONAL LAW.

SELF-DETERMINATION FOR EVERY PEOPLE.

AND THE SECOND PRINCIPLE, WE WANT TO RECOGNIZE, IS A PRINCIPLE OF JUSTICE.

WE SEE THE DRAMA, THE ON GOING DRAMA IN THE REGION.

WE SEE THE HUMANITARIAN TRAGEDY IN GAZA.

WE SEE THE POLICY OF COLONIZATION.

THIS HAS TO STOP.

WE HAVE TO SEND TO THE UNITED STATES, WHATEVER YOU DO, THE PRINCIPLE OF THE RECOGNITION OF PALESTINE CANNOT BE ERASED.

IT IS PART OF THE INTERNATIONAL WORLD.

>> YOU KNOW THE ISREALIS AND THE UNITED STATES SAYS THAT THIS IS A REWARD FOR HAMAS.

IT COMES CLOSE TO THE SECOND ANNIVERSARY OF OCTOBER 7, AND THEY SAY, WHILE NETANYAHU HIMSELF SAID, BY THE WAY, THIS IS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN.

FIRST ADDRESS THE HAMAS ISSUE.

>> WELL, IT IS A VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE AND I THINK THAT NOBODY WHO KNOWS THE FILE CAN SAY WHAT BENJAMIN NETANYAHU IS SAYING.

IT'S EXACTLY THE REVERSE.

THIS DECISION OF RECOGNITION THAT WILL START TODAY IS THE END OF A LONG PROCESS.

WE HAVE TAKEN THE DECLARATION OF NEW YORK, THE NEW YORK DECLARATION FOLLOWING THE SUMMIT?

IN JULY, AND MID SEPTEMBER, THIS DECLARATION HAS BEEN ADOPTED BY A VAST MAJORITY OF STATES IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY AND THESE DECLARATIONS SAYS VERY CLEARLY, THAT HAMAS HAS TO BE PUT ON THE SIDE.

HAMAS HAS TO BE DEMILITARIZED.

SO, THIS RECOGNITION HAD A STARTING POINT, WHICH IS TO PUT AWAY HAMAS.

AND TO SAY VERY CLEARLY, THAT ALL THE ARAB STATES ARE WILLING TO BUILD UP A NEW POLITICAL SITUATION IN GAZA AND FOR PALESTINE.

SO, IN NO WAY THERE IS ANY KIND OF REWARD IN THE DIRECTION OF HAMAS.

IT IS EXACTLY THE CONTRARY.

WE MUST REMEMBER FROM THE BEGINNING, FROM ITS CREATION, HAMAS HAS NOT BEEN LOOKING FOR THE CREATION OF A PALESTINIAN STATE.

HAMAS HAS BEEN LOOKING FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL.

SO TODAY IS AN IMPORTANT STEP FOR THE RECOGNITION AND THE NORMALIZATION OF THE PLACE OF ISRAEL IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

AND THE RISK, IF WE DON'T GO FORWARD IN THAT DIRECTION, IS THAT THE ON GOING WAR IN GAZA, THE ON GOING FIGHT IN WEST BANK WILL END UP AS A RELIGIOUS WAR.

WE SEE THAT HAMAS IS AN ISLAMIC TERRORIST MOVEMENT.

ISRAEL, WE SEE THAT THE GOVERNMENT OF BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, THE PEOPLE THAT ARE TAKING THE LEAD ARE THE REPRESENTATIVE OF ISRAEL.

IF WE LET THESE FORCES TOGETHER, WE WILL END UP AN EVEN BIGGER WAR BETWEEN RELIGION, WHICH WILL BE THE WORST FOR THE WHOLE REGION.

>> LET ME JUST PLAY A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT YOUR PRESIDENT, EMMANUEL MACRON HAS SAID ABOUT THE STAGES OF THIS RECOGNITION AND LET ME JUST PLAY IT AND WE'LL GO THROUGH IT IN A MINUTE.

>> SO, WE WANT TO ANNOUNCE RECOGNITION, WHICH IS THE BEGINNING OF THE POLITICAL PROCESS, AND A PEACE AND PLAN FOR EVERYBODY.

RIGHT AFTER THIS RECOGNITION, WE HAVE FIRST PHASE, WHICH IS THE EMERGENCY PHASE.

CEASEFIRE, AND THIRD, RESTORING THE ROADS AND RESTABILIZATION OF GAZA.

THE DAY AFTER, WE WILL REVERT ON THAT, HOW TO ORGANIZE IN TERMS OF SECURITY AND THIRD, THE PERSPECTIVE OF TWO STATES.

RECOGNIZING THAT THE PALESTINIAN STATE TODAY IS THE ONLY WAY TO PROVIDE A POLITICAL SOLUTION TO A SITUATION WHICH HAS TO STOP.

>> SO, HE LAYED OUT THE PHASES.

WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL BE THE PRAGMATIC?

YOU'VE EXPLAINED THE GEO POLITIC, THE -- THE PRAGMATIC NEXT STEPS, WHAT HAPPENS NEXT?

WHAT WILL BE THE IMMEDIATE EFFECT OF THIS RECOGNITION?

IF ISRAEL AND U. S. DOESN'T AGREE?

>> WELL, THE FIRST PHASE SHOULD BE THE POLITICAL PHASE WITH THE CEASEFIRE, WHICH WILL ALLOW THE FREEDOM OF HOSTAGES, WHICH IS A KEY STEP.

WE NEED TO END THIS HORROR THAT THE HOSTAGES HAVE BEEN GOING THROUGH FOR ALMOST TWO YEARS.

THERE ARE TWO CONDITIONS.

THE FIRST ONE, TO CREATE THE GLOBAL ATMOSPHERE TO GET THE CEASEFIRE.

AND THE SECOND THING THAT WE DO NEED IS ISRAEL, THE GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL AGREEING ON THAT.

THE QUESTION IS, HOW IMPORTANT TODAY FOR THE GOVERNMENT OF BENJAMIN NETANYAHU RELEASING THE HOSTAGES?

IS IT A PRIORITY NOT A PRIORITY?

MY FEAR IS THAT THE GOVERNMENT OF BENJAMIN NETANYAHU IS PURSUING ANOTHER GOAL AND THE MAIN GOAL OF BENJAMIN NETANYAHU IS THE GREATER ISRAEL.

IS THE DEPORTATION OF THE PALESTINIAN OF GAZA OUTSIDE GAZA.

IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO ACHIEVE WHAT HAS BEEN SET AS THE GOAL OF TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND THE ISREALI GOVERNMENT, WHICH IS THE GREAT TRUST PLAN.

THERE IS A PLAN TO GO FORWARD, TO HAVE ALL THE PALESTINIANS, AND ON THE OTHER SIDE, THEY ARE LOOKING FOR THE ANNEXATION OF THE BIGGEST SPOT OF THE WEST BANK.

60%.

IS THE OBJECTIVE OF THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT OF NETANYAHU, DISCUSSING WITH MARCO RUBIO, HOW POSSIBLE IS IT TO ACHIEVE THESE GOALS?

SO I'M AFRAID THAT THE HOSTAGES MIGHT NOT BE AT THE TOP OF THE AGENDA, AND WHAT WE NEED IS TO PUT PRESSURE ON THE ISREALI GOVERNMENT AND TO CREATE THE CONDITION OF THIS CEASEFIRE.

WE HAVE BEEN SEEING THE MEDIATORS, EGYPT AND QATAR, WORKING VERY HARD.

IT SEEMS THAT TODAY THERE IS ON THE TABLE AN AGREEMENT.

HOW MUCH THE ISREALI GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO SEIZE THIS OPPORTUNITY, ARE THEY GOING TO LOOK FOR A BIGGER POLITICAL STRATEGY, WHICH IS THE ONE WE KNOW AS THE GREATER ISRAEL.

WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT TODAY, WE ARE IN A COMPLETELY NEW SITUATION AFTER THE TWO YEARS OF WAR.

ISRAEL IS DOMINATING THE REGION.

EVERY SINGLE, ALMOST EVERY SINGLE OBJECTIVE OF BENJAMIN NETANYAHU HAS BEEN ACHIEVED.

AND NOW, SINCE 1836, THE DOMINATION OF ISRAEL AND WE HAVE TO GO BACK TO THE EMPIRE, TO HAVE SUCH A DOMINATION, THEY WANT TO TRANSFORM THIS DOMINATION IN THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE GREATER ISRAEL.

OF COURSE, WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THERE IS NO WAY ISRAEL IS GOING TO MAINTAIN HIS DOMINATION THROUGH FORCE.

WE NEED TO TRANSFORM IT POLITICALLY, BECAUSE IF WE DON'T DO THAT, ISRAEL WILL NEVER BE SECURE.

IN ITS OWN BORDERS, SO WE NEED TO PRESSURE THE GOVERNMENT OF BENJAMIN NETANYAHU TO ACCEPT A LONG LASTING PEACE THAT WILL SECURE ITS OWN COUNTRY.

>> HOW DO YOU PRESSURE THEN?

BECAUSE EVERY COUNTRY CERTAINLY MANY EUROPEANS BEFORE TRUMP CAME ALONG TO AN EXTENT, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WAS TRYING TO GET TO ABIDE BY THE RULES OF THE ROAD AND INTERNATIONAL LAW IN ITS WAR AGAINST HAMAS.

SPAIN NOW HAS PLEDGED A PERMANENT BAN ON THE SALE OF WEAPONS TO ISRAEL.

BELGIUM ANNOUNCED A PLAN FOR A BAN ON IMPORTS FROM ISREALI SETTLEMENTS IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK.

HOW DO YOU ACTUALLY PRESSURE ISRAEL TO DO THIS?

AS I SAY, WHILE THE UNITED STATES IS STANDING BY, YOU MENTIONED MARCO RUBIO, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS HAD ENDLESS DISCUSSIONS WITH PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU, AND THE RESULT SEEMS TO BE OKAY, THIS IS JUST A DECISION FOR ISRAEL.

THEY ARE FREE TO DO WHATEVER THEY WANT.

>> AS A MATTER OF FACT, WE HAVE VERY CLEARLY TO LOOK AT THE PICTURE.

THE EUROPEANS, THEY HAVE NOT DONE EVERYTHING THEY CAN TO PUT PRESSURE ON ISRAEL.

THEY HAVE NOT DECIDED TO ADOPT SANCTIONS ON ISRAEL.

WE HAVE AN EU AGREEMENT, ASSOCIATION AGREEMENT WITH ISRAEL, WHICH IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR THE ISREALI ECONOMY.

IF WE SUSPEND THIS AGREEMENT, IT WILL TAKE WEEKS OR MAYBE VERY LITTLE MONTHS FOR ISRAEL TO BE IN THE OBLIGATION TO REACT.

CONCERNING THE UNITED STATES, THEY HAVE DONE NOTHING BUT TO ACCOMPANY THE WILLINGNESS OF ISRAEL TO GO FORWARD ON ITS POLITICAL PROJECT.

SO WE NEED TO OPEN THE EYES ON WHAT IS GOING ON BOTH IN GAZA AND IN THE WEST BANK.

THERE IS AN ON GOING GENOCIDE.

THIS IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF EVERY CITIZEN OF THE WORLD.

TO FEEL RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT IS GOING ON.

AND THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION CANNOT FORGET ITS OWN RESPONSIBILITY.

AND WE MUST PUT THE NECESSARY PRESSURE SO IT IS THROUGH INTERNATIONAL PRESSURE AND ACTION.

WHAT WILL BE DECIDED IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY IS OF COURSE, VERY IMPORTANT.

WE MAY CONSIDER ITS VERY SYMBOLIC AND THAT'S WHY THE ARAB STATES, THE EUROPEAN STATES, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, MUST REALIZE THAT IF WE WANT TO STOP THE TRAGEDY IN GAZA, WITH ALL THE RISK OF AN EXTENSION OF WAR, BECAUSE WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE CONSEQUENCES MIGHT BE MORE TERRORISM FOR THE REGION AND ELSEWHERE AROUND THE WORLD.

AND MORE NUCLEAR PROLIFERATION.

THE ONLY MESSAGE THAT WE ARE SENDING FOR THE COUNTRIES OF THE REGION IS THAT IF YOU DON'T HAVE A NUCLEAR CAPABILITY, YOU ARE NOT PROTECTED.

SO IT IS MORE VIOLENCE, MORE TENSIONS, MORE INHUMANITY THAT WILL DEVELOP IN THIS REGION AND I THINK IT IS TIME TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR WHAT IS GOING ON.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU STOOD UP IN THE U. N. GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

YOU REMEMBER IT WELL.

MANY PEOPLE REMEMBER IT WELL, IN 2003, AND YOU GAVE A SPEECH JUST BEFORE THEN, GEORGE W. BUSH'S ADMINISTRATION WANTED TO GO TO WAR IN IRAQ.

IT WAS ABOUT SO-CALLED WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION.

FRANCE HAD A DIFFERENT IDEA.

IT DID NOT BELIEVE IN THE RUSH TO WAR.

HERE'S WHAT YOU SAID.

>> NO ONE TODAY CAN CLAIM THAT THE PATH OF WAR WILL BE SHORTER THAN THE PATH OF INSPECTIONS.

NO ONE CAN CLAIM THAT IT WOULD LEAD TO A SAFER, MORE JUST, MORE STABLE WORLD.

FOR WAR IS ALWAYS THE SANCTION OF FAILURE.

WOULD THIS BE OUR SOLE RECOURSE IN THE FACE OF MANY CHALLENGES AT THIS TIME?

SO LET US GIVE THE UNITED NATIONS INSPECTORS THE TIME THEY NEED FOR THEIR MISSION TO SUCCEED.

>> YOU WERE A FOREIGN MINISTER BACK THEN.

I INTERVIEWED YOUR PRESIDENT.

HE SAID THE VERY SAME THING, GIVE THEM MORE TIME, THE INSPECTORS.

IN THE END, HE WAS RIGHT.

THERE WAS NO WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION AND WE KNOW WHAT THAT WAR DID FOR THE MIDDLE EAST AND ALL THE BLOWBACK THAT HAPPENED.

BUT FRANCE WAS ISOLATED BACK THEN.

AND I WONDER WHAT IT FELT LIKE BEING ISOLATED WHEN YOU WERE TRYING TO TELL YOUR FRIENDS, THE U.S., TO THINK A LITTLE BIT.

TO SPEND A LITTLE MORE TIME THINKING ABOUT THIS.

LIKE PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO TELL ISRAEL.

REMEMBER JOE BIDEN SAID TO ISRAEL, RIGHT AFTER OCTOBER 7, DON'T DO WHAT WE DID IN IRAQ.

>> WELL, OF COURSE IT'S A HUGELY PAINFUL.

I'M AFRAID AMONG THE MAIN REASONS FOR BENJAMIN NETANYAHU TO FOLLOW THIS POLICY, THERE ARE MANY, MANY DOMESTIC REASONS, PERSONAL REASONS, AND A STRONG IDEOLOGICAL STAND, WHICH IS YOU CAN GET SECURITY AND PEACE, WHICH IS THE BIGGEST MISTAKE ANY COUNTRY CAN MAKE.

EVERYTHING WE LEARNED IN THE LAST 25 YEARS SHOWS US THAT FORCE WITHOUT A STRONG POLITICAL STRATEGY CAN GET YOU NOWHERE.

BUT MORE VIOLENCE AND MORE TERRORISM.

AND WE KNOW ALREADY FOR SURE, THAT AFTER TWO YEARS OF A LONG FIGHT AGAINST HAMAS IN GAZA, THERE IS ALMOST THE SAME NUMBER OF PEOPLE BELONGING TO HAMAS, 25,000 THAN PREVIOUSLY.

THAT MEANS TERRORISM, YOU CANNOT KILL TERRORISM.

YOU NEED TO FIGHT THE THEOLOGY THROUGH ANOTHER WAY.

AND YOU HAVE TO GIVE HOPE TO THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE.

IF YOU DON'T GIVE HOPE TO THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE, HOW WOULD THEY UNDERSTAND THAT THEY HAVE TO DISREGARD THE HAMAS MESSAGES?

SO, THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR EUROPEANS AND AMERICANS TODAY IS TO CHOOSE THE PATH OF RESPONSIBILITY, TO TAKE THE LESSONS OF HISTORY.

AND I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT FOR THE U. S. ADMINISTRATION TODAY TO UNDERSTAND THAT EVERYWHERE, THE CREDIBILITY OF THE U. S. DIPLOMACY IS TACKLED.

IN UKRAINE, THE U. S. ADMINISTRATION IS SHOWING POWERLESSNESS.

IN THE MIDDLE EAST, THE REAL BOSS IS NOT DONALD TRUMP, THE BOSS IS BENJAMIN NETANYAHU.

DONALD TRUMP HAS TO FOLLOW, EVEN WHEN HE DOESN'T WANT TO DO SO, LIKE IN IRAN.

HE HAS TO FOLLOW BENJAMIN NETANYAHU.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, THIS IS NOT CREATING A STABLE WORLD.

>> ONE LAST QUESTION, BECAUSE YOU MENTIONED UKRAINE AND IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT.

THIS IS ALSO A TURNING POINT MOMENT WITH RUSSIAN FIGHTER JETS.

THE LATEST IS THAT THEY WENT INTO ASTONIAN AIR SPACE.

THIS IS AFTER BREECHING POLISH AND ROMANIAN AIR SPACE.

THIS IS WHAT THE BRITISH FOREIGN MINISTER SAID.

>> YOUR RECKLESS ACTIONS RISK A DIRECT --BE UNDER NO ILLUSION.

WE STAND READY TO TAKE ALL STEPS NECESSARY TO DEFEND NATO SKIES.

WE ARE DILIGENT AND WE ARE RESOLUTE.

IF WE NEED TO CONFRONT PLANES THAT ARE OPERATING IN NATO SPACE WITHOUT PERMISSION, WE WILL DO SO.

>> WE HAVE ABOUT 30 SECONDS LEFT.

I WANT TO ASK YOU, GIVEN THAT SPEECH, GIVEN WHAT PUTIN IS DOING NOW, TESTING, TESTING, TESTING, DO YOU THINK NATO SHOULD DO WHAT TURKEY AND NATO NATION DID A FEW YEARS AGO, SHOOT DOWN THE RUSSIAN PLANES WITHOUT ANY PERMISSION.

IS IT TIME TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT?

>> WE SHOULD ADVISE VERY CLEARLY, PRESIDENT PUTIN, THAT HE IS TAKING A BIG RISK, AND WE WILL RESPOND.

AND I THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP WOULD BE WELL ADVISED TO SEND STRONG MESSAGES AND NOT FIND EXCUSES TO PRESIDENT PUTIN WHY PRESIDENT PUTIN IS TRYING TO PLAY WITH THE COUNTRY OF THE REGION.

IT IS TIME FOR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ALL OF US.

THIS IS A VERY SERIOUS MATTER.

AND THE NAME OF OUR COUNTRY, THE NAME AND THE INTEREST OF OUR PEOPLE IS AT STAKE.

>> INDEED.

FORMER PRIME MINISTER, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US FROM PARIS.

> >> SO, LET'S DIG A LITTLE DEEPER.

IS THE TWO-STATE DECISION STILL FEASIBLE?

FORMER PEACE NEGOTIATORS AND ROBERT MALLY, ARE SHARING WHAT WE CAN ALL LEARN IN THEIR NEW BOOK, TOMORROW IS YESTERDAY.

AND THEY BOTH JOIN ME NOW.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM AND THANK YOU FOR JOINING ME.

I WONDER IF YOU LISTENED TO DOMONIQUE OF FRANCE TALKING ABOUT WHY THIS RECOGNITION WAS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY.

ROBERT MALLY FROM THE AMERICAN PERSPECTIVE, AND YOU'VE BEEN IN THE ROOM WHERE IT ALL HAPPENED.

I KNOW YOU'VE WRITTEN A BOOK ABOUT IT, BUT IS THIS A GOOD THING AND WILL IT BE PRAGMATICALLY USEFUL FOR PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST?

THIS RECOGNITION THAT WE'RE SEEING IN THE U. N. THIS WEEK.

>> SO FIRST, THANKS FOR HAVING US.

I LISTENED TO THE FORMER PRIME MINISTER, I HAVE HUGE RESPECT FOR HIM.

AS YOU SHOWED THE ROLE HE PLAYED IN THE WAR IN IRAQ.

WE NEED TO TURN THE SITUATION AROUND RATHER THAN RESOLVE THE CONFLICT.

BUT YOU STILL HAVE TO RESOLVE THE ISSUES AND HE HASN'T GIVEN US A CLUE, AND NONE OF THE PARTIES ARE RECOGNIZING A PALESTINIAN STATE ARE TELLING US HOW IT'S GOING TO COME ABOUT.

I UNDERSTAND THE SUPPORT IN EUROPE, I'M SURE FEEL QUITE HAPPY THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE PAYING ATTENTION TO THEM AFTER SO MANY YEARS OF IGNORING THEM.

HOW IS RECOGNITION GOING TO CHANGE ANYTHING ON THE GROUND?

THERE HAVE BEEN MANY OTHER INSTANCES WHERE THE UNITED STATES WAS PUSHING FOR A TWO- STATE SOLUTION ON PAPER.

WE REMEMBER THE ROAD MAP FOR PEACE, NOT JUST THE UNITED STATES, BUT THE PALESTINIANS AND THE ISREALIS DURING THE PRESIDENCY OF THE SECOND PRESIDENT BUSH, SO TIME AND TIME AGAIN, WHERE THERE'S BEEN SUPPORT ON PAPER FOR TWO STATE SOLUTION.

BUT NONE OF THE OBSTACLES HAVE BEEN ABLE TO BE OVERCOME.

NEW THE RECOGNITION OF A PALESTINIAN STATE.

WHAT OTHERS ARE GOING TO DO WHEN ISRAEL OBJECTS.

WHEN ISRAEL CONTINUES TO DO WHAT IT DOES IN GAZA.

IT CONTINUES TO EXPAND THE FOOTPRINT.

SETTLERS HAD INCREASED THE TERRITORY UNDER THEIR CONTROL.

THE TERRITORY, THREE TIMES THE SIZE OF GAZA.

WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO SAY WHEN THAT CONTINUES?

WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO SAY, EVEN IF THEY WERE TO GET TO THE TABLE, WHICH SEEMS UNLIKELY AT THIS POINT, A TWO-STATE SOLUTION IN THE PAST, THE INABILITY TO RECONCILE PALESTINIAN'S DEMANDS FOR JUSTICE, FOR THE RIGHTS OF THE REFUGEES, FOR REAL SOVEREIGN STATE, AND ISREALI DEMANDS FOR ABSOLUTE SECURITY AND FOR RECOGNITION OF THE JEWISH STATE AND FOR NORMALCY.

HOW DO YOU RECONCILE THOSE?

WHAT DO YOU DO ABOUT 700,000JEWISH SETTLERS IN THE WEST BANK AND JERUSALEM, WHAT DO YOU DO ABOUT THE MILLIONS OF REFUGEES?

THOSE ARE THE PROBLEMS THAT IN THE PAST MADE A TWO-STATE SOLUTION IMPOSSIBLE.

EVERYTHING HAS GOTTEN WORSE SINCE THAT TIME.

>> LET ME ASK YOUR COLLABORATOR IN THIS BOOK.

IF IT'S NOT A TWO-STATE SOLUTION, WHAT IS IT?

WHAT IS THE SOLUTION THEN FOR PALESTINIAN INDEPENDENCE AND SOVEREIGNTY AND SECURITY AS A JEWISH STATE FOR ISRAEL?

>> AT THIS STAGE, THERE'S NO SOLUTION.

AT THIS STAGE, WE HAVE TO REDEFINE THE CONFLICT.

FIND OUT WHERE WE WENT WRONG.

AND REMEMBER, THE CONFLICT THAT START WITH 67.

IT'S BEEN GOING ON, THE IDEA OF A TWO-STATE SOLUTION FOR OVER EIGHT YEARS AND IT DOES NOT WORK.

AND NOBODY STOPPED AND LOOKED AND SAID WHY IT DID NOT WORK.

WE HAD THE PARTICIPATION, BEFORE THAT, THE COMMISSION, THE WHITE PAPER, AND THEN WE HAD THE PALESTINIANS RECOGNIZING ISRAEL AND ASKING FOR A PALESTINIAN STATE IN '88, AND OSLO, AND CAMP DAVID, AND THEN WE HAD THE DIALOGUE, THE ANNAPOLIS PROCESS.

AND THEY ALL DID NOT WORK.

NOBODY HAS STOPPED AND LOOKED AND SAID WHY DID THEY NOT WORK?

>> AND WHY DID THEY NOT?

THEY DID NOT WORK, BECAUSE THEY MISCONCEIVED WHAT THE CONFLICT WAS ABOUT.

THEY LOOKED AT IT AS BEING JUST A TERRITORIAL CONFLICT THAT CAN BE SOLVED THROUGH DRAWING LINES ON MAPS AND SAYING THIS SIDE IS ISREALI OR JEWISH AND THIS SIDE IS ARAB AND THAT'S IT.

ALL OF THE MESSY ISSUES, THE HEART OF THIS CONFLICT, FEELINGS, EMOTIONS, YEARNINGS, POSSESSION, ASPIRATIONS, YOU ALWAYS RECOGNIZE THAT THEY ARE IMPORTANT.

YOU NEVER DISCUSS THEM.

YOU SAY, THIS CANNOT LEAD YOU TO POLICIES THAT ARE WELL DEFINED AND APPLICABLE.

SO YOU GO FOR THE EASY OPTION OF LOOKING FOR NEAT KIND OF WORKOUTS THAT WILL WORK OUT AND THEY DON'T WORK OUT.

>> IT DOES SOUND LIKE BOTH OF YOU ARE VERY DOWN ON THIS IDEA, YOU KNOW, WE'VE SEEN THE HISTORY.

I THINK SOME OF YOU HAVE WRITTEN THAT CERTAINLY OTHER NEGOTIATORS HAVE SAID THAT ONE OF THE ISSUES WAS THAT AMERICA OFTEN ACTED TOO MUCH, NOT LIKE AN HONEST BROKER, BUT LIKE ISRAEL'S LAWYER.

I WONDERED, WHAT ARE YOUR CREATIVE SOLUTIONS THEN?

OR DO YOU AGREE?

HAVE YOU BOTH COME TO THE CONCLUSION?

LIKE NETANYAHU JUST SAID, THIS IS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN.

A PALESTINIAN STATE IS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN.

>> SO, LISTEN.

AS YOU SAID, WE'RE NOT IN THE BUSINESS OF SAYING, HERE'S A SOLUTION.

BOTH HUSSAIN AND I HAVE PARTICIPATED IN MANY INSTANCES FOR A LONG TIME.

I DID IT UNDER TWO U. S. ADMINISTRATIONS.

WE FAILED, SO IT'S NOT UP TO US.

WE HAVE THE SOLUTION, HERE'S THE BLUEPRINT.

IN FACT, ANYONE WHO HAS A BLUEPRINT, WE ARE ALL EARS, IT'S HARD TO SEE HOW WE GO FROM WHERE WE ARE NOW TO A PEACEFUL OUTCOME FOR BOTH PEOPLE.

BUT ONE THING THAT WE TRY TO POINT OUT IN OUR BOOK IS THAT THIS IS --WE'RE NOT IN A NEW SITUATION.

THIS IS VERY REMINISCENT OF WHEREBALL STUN CRANES WHERE PALESTINIANS WERE DECADES AGO.

IT CAME WITH THEM MEETING QUIETLY, COURAGEOUSPALESTINIANS EXPLORING IDEAS AND MAYBE THAT'S WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN TODAY AS WE GET TO MOVE BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD, WHICH IS VERY FRUSTRATING, GIVEN I UNDERSTAND PEOPLE WANT TO JUST REACH TO THE SHELF AND FIND THE FIRST CONVENIENT SOLUTION AND IT'S A TWO-STATE SOLUTION, BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T SPOKEN ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE FOR SO LONG.

IF IT HASN'T WORKED UNDER FAR BETTER CIRCUMSTANCES THAN TODAY, I HAVE TO REPEAT THAT.

THE SITUATION ON THE GROUND IS FAR SUPERIOR IN THE 90s, IN THE EARLY 2000.

FIVE YEARS AGO, AND THE SUPPORT ON BOTH SIDES WAS MUCH GREATER AND THE LEVEL OF ANIMOSITY WAS LESS.

SO WE'RE IN FAR, FAR WORSE SITUATIONS TODAY.

RATHER THAN A WIND UP DOLL AND SAY TWO-STATE SOLUTION EVERY TIME WE DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE TO SAY AND PEOPLE NEED TO DO SOMETHING, THIS IS A TIME, THE FIRST PRIORITY SHOULD BE TO END THE CARNAGE IN GAZA.

THAT SHOULD BE WHERE ALL THE FOCUS IS.

THEN TAKE SOME TIME AND THINK CREATIVELY ABOUT HOW THESE TWO PEOPLES CAN LIVE IN PEACE WITH THEIR ASPIRATIONS SATISFIED.

THAT'S NOT GOING TO BE EASY AND I DON'T HAVE THE ANSWER SITTING HERE TODAY.

>> AS YOU ARE TALKING, WE SAW THE FAMOUS HANDSHAKE ON THE WHITE HOUSE LAWN IN 1993.

CEMENTING THE OSLO PROCESS.

WE SAW ALL THESE INVITED GUESTS CLAPPING AND CHEERING.

IN THE BOOK, YOU SAY ON THE OSLO ACCORDS, THE WORLD CELEBRATED A TEXT IT EQUATED WITH A ONE-WAY PATH TO PEACE.

AM JOSE, TAKE ME THROUGH THAT AGAIN.

BECAUSE YOU TALKED ABOUT HOW, YOU KNOW, THE NEGOTIATORS, THEY DIDN'T FOCUS ON A LOT OF THE, AS YOU CALLED IT, HUMAN ISSUES.

IT WAS ALL DONE IN TERMS OF THE WORDS SECURITY.

AND NOT IN ANY OTHER TERMS.

WALK ME THROUGH ABOUT WHY YOU THINK BACK THEN, THE AM.

>> THE ISREALIS HAD THE VIEW OF THE OSLO WAS DIFFERENT.

THE PALESTINIANS THOUGHT OSLO LED TO A PALESTINIAN STATE.

THE ISREALIS THOUGHT OSLO WAS A MECHANISM THROUGH WHICH THEY CAN SECURE THE PALESTINIAN POPULATION UNDER THE CONTROL WITHOUT REALLY EXPENDING ISREALI RESOURCES.

BECAUSE THEY TRY TO DO IT VIA THEMSELVES.

IT DID NOT WORK.

SO IF THERE IS A PALESTINIAN AGENCY THAT IS WILLING TO TAKE OVER AND PERFORM THE TASK, THEN THEY ARE WELCOME, AND THAT'S OSLO.

IF THIS WAS NEVER DISCUSSED AS SUCH AT THE TIME, THE PALESTINIANS NEVER SAID THAT WE ARE NOT HERE TO STOP CONTRACT ISREALI SECURITY.

THE ISREALIS NEVER SAID THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS IS ABOUT PALESTINIAN STATE.

SO THEY WERE MOVING IN LINES ALL THROUGH.

THAT'S WHY YOU COULD NOT GET THEM TOGETHER TO AGREE TO ANYTHING.

AND THEY TRIED AND THERE ARE GOOD PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES THAT WANTED TO HAVE SOME KIND OF RESOLUTION, BUT IF YOU MISREAD THE SITUATION, IF YOU HAVE DIFFERENT INTENTIONS, YOU CANNOT REACH THE SAME DESTINATION.

>> JUST BEFORE I GO BACK TO ROB FOR A LAST QUESTION, OF COURSE, YOU WERE AN ADVISER TO MAHMOUD ABBAS.

DO YOU THINK THAT HE MISSED ONE OF THE ONLY REAL CHANCES WHEN THE ISREALI PRIME MINISTER LAYED IT OUT IN CHAPTER AND VERSE ABOUT WHAT HE WAS WILLING TO, YOU KNOW, TRADE FOR PEACE.

THAT WAS LAND.

THAT WAS SHARING JERUSALEM.

IT WAS A LOT.

>> THAT'S A MYTH.

SHOW ME WHAT BARAT PRESENTED.

IT DOES NOT EXIST.

IT DOES NOT EXIST.

AS A MATTER OF FACT, WHEN BARAT RETURNED FROM CAMP DAVID, HE SAID I'M THE ONLY ISREALI PRIME MINISTER THAT HAS NOT GIVEN OR OFFERED THE PALESTINIANS ANYTHING.

SO THERE WAS THIS MYTH CREATE OUT OF CAMP DAVID AND THIS GENEROUS ORDER.

AND BEFORE GOING TO CAMP DAVID, THAT THE SITUATION WAS NOT TRIED AND HE TOLD PRESIDENT CLINTON THAT THIS IS NOT GOING TO WORK OUT AND YOU'RE GOING TO BLAME ME, AND CLINTON TOLD HIM, NO, I WILL NOT BLAME YOU EVEN IF IT DOESN'T WORK OUT.

IT DID NOT WORK OUT AND CLINTON CAME OUT AND BLAMED HIM.

IT'S NOT THE VILLAIN OF THE PEACE.

I DON'T THINK EVEN BARRACK IS THE VILLAIN OF THE PEACE.

THE SITUATION WAS SUCH THAT IT COULD NOT ASK RESULTED IN ANYTHING ELSE.

>> YOU KNOW, I ALWAYS STRUGGLE WITH THAT.

I HAVE TO SAY.

AND ROB MALLY, DO YOU BELIEVE BARRACK OFFERED NOTHING?

HE KEEPS SAYING IT AND CLINTON KEEPS SAYING IT AND CLINTON IS STILL ANGRY THAT ARAFAT TURNED IT DOWN, WHEN CLINTON WAS LEAVING OFFICE.

>> ECHOING WHAT YOU WERE SAYING, LISTEN TO BARRACK AND WHAT HE SAID AFTERWARDS.

HE WAS THERE, PUT THAT ASIDE.

LISTEN TO THE WORDS OF THE THEN ISREALI FOREIGN MINISTER, WHO SAYS IF HE HAD BEEN A PALESTINIAN AND HEARD THE IDEAS THAT WERE EXPRESSED AT CAMP DAVID, HE WOULD HAVE PROJECTED IT THEN.

IT'S TRUE.

MOVED IN TERMS OF THE IDEAS HE WAS PREPARED TO SHARE AND THE ABSTRACT IDEAS HE SHARED WITH PRESIDENT CLINTON AND PRESIDENT CLINTON SHARED.

BEYOND WHAT OTHER LEADERS HAVE DONE, NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

THE MEASURE OF NOT HOW FAR HAS MOVED, IT'S HOW CLOSE THE TWO PARTIES ARE.

THEY ARE HUGE GAPS.

IF YOU SPEAK TO EVERY AMERICAN MEMBER OF THE TEAM, INCLUDING ISREALI MEMBERS OF THEIR TEAM, THEY WOULD SAY THAT THIS WAS NOT ORGANIZED, IT WAS NOT SERIOUS EFFORT TO REACH A PEACE DEAL.

THERE WAS NO PIECE OF PAPER WITH THE PROPOSAL.

THERE WAS NO AGREEMENT ON TERRITORY, SECURITY, JERUSALEM, REFUGEES, SO IT WAS A GREAT BRAINSTORMING, WE ALL LEARNED A LOT ABOUT THE RESPECTIVE POSITIONS.

WE WERE NEVER CLOSE.

TO SAY THAT WAS THE OPPORTUNITY SAYS A LOT ABOUT HOW FEW OPPORTUNITIES THEY HAVE BEEN OVER THE YEARS.

>> WELL LISTEN, IT IS A SAD SITUATION.

YOUR BOOK TOMORROW IS YESTERDAY.

A REALLY INTERESTING READ.

THANK YOU TO ROB MALLY AND TO JOSE.

> >> NOW, ABOUT 40% OF AMERICANS WILL BE DIAGNOSED WITH A TYPE OF CANCER AT SOME POINT IN THEIR LIVES.

IT'S AN ALARMING STATISTIC.

MADE EVEN MORE SO BY THE FACT THAT CANCER RESEARCH ITSELF IS UNDER THREAT IN THE UNITED STATES.

WITH THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION CONTINUING TO SLASH MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN VITAL FUNDING AND LEAVING COUNTLESS FAMILIES SCRAMBLING FOR OPTIONS.

STAFF WRITER FOR THE "NEW YORK TIMES" MAGAZINE IS INVESTIGATING JUST WHAT KIND OF IMPACT THESE CUTS ALREADY ARE HAVING ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

HE JOINS HARRY TO DISCUSS HIS FINDINGS.

>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOU WROTE A PIECE IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES" MAGAZINE TITLED, TRUMP IS SHUTTING DOWN THE WAR ON CANCER.

AND YOU TAKE SO MANY DIFFERENT APPROACHES IN THIS PIECE.

LET'S START WITH THE FIRST.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THIS?

GIVE ME THE SCALE OF THE WAR ON CANCER AND WHAT HE IS SHUTTING DOWN.

>> YEAH, SO I MEAN THE WAR ON CANCER IS SOMETHING THAT WE STARTED LAUNCHED IN THIS COUNTRY, YOU KNOW, BACK IN 1971.

PRESIDENT NIXON SIGNED THE LEGISLATION, THE NATIONAL CANCER ACT.

AND REALLY WHAT IT WAS, WAS A COMMITMENT TO MAKE A SUSTAINED, LARGE INVESTMENT IN TREATING CANCER AND IMPROVING OUR TREATMENT OF CANCER.

AND OVER THE DECADES THAT INVESTMENT HAS GROWN STEADILY, AND NOW WE REACHED A MOMENT WHERE WE'RE POISED FOR EVEN GREATER BREAKTHROUGHS.

AT THE VERY MOMENT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS DECIDED THAT WE'RE SPENDING, DECIDED THAT WE'RE SPENDING WAY TOO MUCH MONEY TRYING TO CURE CANCER.

AND THE WAR ON THE WAR ON CANCER IS HAPPENING BOTH IN TERMS OF THE CANCELLATION OF INDIVIDUAL GRANTS, SO INDIVIDUAL PROJECTS THAT WERE DEDICATED TO DISCOVERING NEW TREATMENTS.

OR YOU KNOW, ADAPTING NEW TREATMENTS.

IT'S HAPPENING IN TERMS OF FREEZES IN FUNDING TO RESEARCH UNIVERSITIES THAT DEPEND ON N. I. H. MONEY TO KEEP THEIR LABS RUNNING.

ARE SUDDENLY FINDING THAT MONEY FROZEN, NOT APPEARING.

AND THEN IT IS HAPPENING ON A LARGER, EVEN LARGER SCALE AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS STILL A LITTLE BIT TO BE DETERMINED, BUT THE PRESIDENT'S PROPOSED BUDGET FOR NEXT YEAR, WHICH IS STILL BEFORE CONGRESS, IS CALLING FOR A 38% CUT TO OUR CANCER RESEARCH BUDGET.

WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, $3 BILLION.

I MEAN, THIS IS A LOT OF MONEY.

IN ADDITION TO THAT, THE ADMINISTRATION IS TRYING TO LOWER THE REIMBURSEMENT RATE THAT RESEARCH UNIVERSITIES GET FOR THEIR OVERHEAD EXPENSES.

SO, YOU KNOW, UNIVERSITIES THAT ARE CONDUCTING THE RESEARCH, THEY HAVE SCIENTISTS WHO ARE DOING THE WORK.

THEY ALSO HAVE TO KEEP THE LABS RUNNING.

THEY HAVE TO EMPLOY PEOPLE TO, YOU KNOW, TO ADMINISTER THE GRANTS.

THEY HAVE TO PAY FOR THE ELECTRICITY, ETCETERA.

THEY ARE ABLE TO EXPENSE SOME OF THOSE COSTS AND THE ADMINISTRATION WANTS TO DRAMATICALLY LOWER THE REIMBURSEMENT RATE FOR UNIVERSITIES.

SO, IT'S REALLY KIND OF A 360- DEGREE ATTACK ON THIS FUNDING SYSTEM.

>> GIVE ME AN IDEA OR GIVE OUR AUDIENCE SOME PERSPECTIVE HERE.

THIS HAS BEEN HAPPENING FOR DECADES.

HOW SUCCESSFUL HAS THAT WAR BEEN?

WE'RE SPENDING BILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF DOLLARS EVERY YEAR.

I GET THAT.

BUT IS THERE A WAY THAT YOU CAN MEASURE WHAT A $GETS US?

>> YEAH, SO I MEAN, MY FAVORITE STATISTIC IS WHICH WAS PUBLISHED RECENTLY IN THE JOURNAL OF CLINICAL ONCOLOGY.

EVERY $300 THAT THE GOVERNMENT SPENDS ON CANCER RESEARCH EXTENDS SOMEONE'S LIFE BY ONE YEAR.

SO, THAT FEELS LIKE A PRETTY MODEST INVESTMENT TO ME AS SOMEONE WHO LOST HIS MOM TO CANCER.

SEEMS TO ME, PRETTY WORTH IT.

TO SAY NOTHING OF THE FACT THAT THERE ARE ENORMOUS ECONOMIC BENEFITS TO THIS INVESTMENT, TOO.

THE BIOTECHNOLOGY INDUSTRY, THE PHARMACEUTICAL INDUSTRY, ALL OF THE INVESTORS IN THESE COMPANIES HAVE ALL MADE ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF MONEY OFF OF THE RESEARCH THAT BEGAN ON THIS BASIC BIOLOGICAL LEVEL FUNDED BY OUR GOVERNMENT.

>> WHEN SOMEBODY GETS A CANCER TODAY VERSUS PERHAPS OUR PARENTS GENERATION, WHAT IS THE LIKELY OUTCOME?

ARE WE MORE LIKELY TO SURVIVE IT?

ARE THERE FEWER CANCERS THAT ARE KIND OF UNTREATABLE?

>> OUR ABILITY TO TREAT CANCER HAS BEEN DRAMATICALLY TRANSFORMED, PARTICULARLY SINCE THE 1990s, SO REALLY, IF YOU THINK ABOUT HOW THIS WHOLE WAR ON CANCER HAS UNFOLDED, THE FIRST, YOU KNOW, 20 PLUS YEARS WERE REALLY A PERIOD WHERE SCIENTISTS WERE MOSTLY GRAPPLING WITH HOW MUCH MORE COMPLICATED THIS DISEASE WAS THAN THEY HAD REALIZED.

IT IS NOT A SINGLE DISEASE.

IT IS HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DISEASES.

AND EACH ONE BEHAVES DIFFERENTLY ON EVERY ORGAN IN EVERYONE'S BODY.

BEGINNING IN THE LATE 90s, YOU KNOW, WHAT HAD BEEN BASICALLY THE ONLY OPTIONS HISTORICALLY HAD BEEN SURGERY, REALLY, AND THEN CHEMOTHERAPY CAME ALONG AND RADIATION AS WELL.

BUT THESE ARE, YOU KNOW, BOTH RADIATION AND CHEMOTHERAPY ARE TOXIC AND NOT ALWAYS EFFECTIVE.

REALLY WHAT THE BIGGEST INNOVATION AND THE INNOVATION IS BUILDING ON IS IMMUNOTHERAPY.

IMMUNOTHERAPY IS ESSENTIALLY THE USE OF ONE'S IMMUNE SYSTEM, THE STIMULATION OF AN IMMUNE SYSTEM TO DETECT THE MUTANT CANCER CELLS AND FIGHT THE CELLS ITSELF.

SO YOUR IMMUNE SYSTEM DOES THE WORK THAT OTHERWISE THESE TOXIC CHEMOTHERAPY CHEMICALS WOULD BE DOING.

WHICH PEOPLE TOLERATE MUCH BETTER, SO THEIR QUALITY OF LIFE DURING TREATMENT IS MUCH BETTER AND MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE.

THIS IS A NEW, IMMUNOTHERAPY IS RELATIVELY NEW.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT 15 YEARS OR SO.

AND THERE IS STILL A LOT OF CANCERS WHERE THEY ARE JUST BEGINNING TO UNDERSTAND HOW TO USE IMMUNOTHERAPIES.

>> TO EL STRAIT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE RESEARCH ECOSYSTEM, YOU HELP PERSONALIZE IT BY LOOKING AT RACHEL SIRIANI, HER RESEARCH FOCUSES ON AN AGGRESSIVE FORM OF PEDIATRIC CANCER KNOWN AS MEDULA BLASTOMA.

TELL US HER STORY AND HOW IT'S INDICATIVE TO PEOPLE FACING GRANTS.

>> SHE'S WORKING ON BASICALLY A NEW WAY TO DELIVER A DRUG, TO DELIVER DRUGS INTO THE INTERIOR OF THE BRAIN TO ATTACK THIS VERY AGGRESSIVE FORM OF PEDIATRIC BRAIN CANCER, WHICH KILLS HUNDREDS OF KIDS EVERY YEAR.

SO SHE HAS BEEN WORKING STEADILY ON THIS FOR, YOU KNOW, TEN YEARS NOW.

AND SHE HAD THREE N. I. H. GRANTS TO DO THIS WORK.

WAS MAKING GREAT PROGRESS.

HER GRANTS WERE JUST BECAUSE THEY ONLY LAST FOR FIVE YEARS OR SO, WERE COMING UP IN 2025 AND 2026.

SO COMING INTO THIS NEW YEAR, AND THE NEW PRESIDENTIAL ADMINISTRATION, SHE WAS AWARE THAT SHE NEEDED NEW GRANTS TO KEEP HER RESEARCH GOING.

SHE RUNS A LAB WITH SEVEN RESEARCHERS AND TECHNICIANS AND IT'S EXPENSIVE AND TIME CONSUMING WORK, RUNNING ALL THESE STUDIES.

SO SHE HAD SUBMITTED TWO GRANT APPLICATIONS TO KEEP HER WORK GOING TO THE N. I. H. DAYS AFTER THE INAUGURATION, SHE WAS INFORMED THAT THE MEETINGS, WHERE HER GRANTS WERE GOING TO BE CONSIDERED, HAD BEEN CANCELED.

AND SO MONTHS NOW WENT BY, SHE HAD TO START LAYING PEOPLE OFF IN HER LAB.

SHE HAD TO CANCEL ONE OF HER MOST PROMISING STUDIES, AND THEN SHE WAS INFORMED THAT IN JUNE, THAT NEITHER PROJECT WAS GOING TO BE FUNDED.

NOW SHE IS FACED WITH THIS DECISION, WHAT AM I GOING TO DO?

THIS IS THIS IMPORTANT WORK THAT I'M DEVOTED TO, THAT I'VE BEEN DOING FOR YEARS NOW AND I'M MAKING GREAT PROGRESS.

SHE HAS COME TO THIS DECISION NOW THAT FOR THE MOMENT, SHE CAN'T FOCUS ON THIS WORK ANY LONGER, PEDIATRIC BRAIN CANCER IS EXPENSIVE.

IT'S EXPENSIVE BECAUSE IT REQUIRES A VERY SPECIFIC KIND OF LAB MOUSE.

SO NOW SHE DECIDED SHE IS GOING TO PIVOT AWAY FROM IT AND START WORKING IN SOME OTHER FIELDS.

YOU KNOW, WHICH IS TRAGIC.

THIS IS A WOMAN MAKING GREAT STRIDES IN HELPING CHILDREN WITH BRAIN CANCER SURVIVE.

IT'S HARD TO IMAGINE, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING MORE WORTHY FOR OUR GOVERNMENT TO BE INVESTING IN.

AND YET, YOU KNOW, HERE SHE IS, HAVING TO MOVE TO OTHER FIELDS.

>> SO YOU KNOW, WE'RE IN A PERIOD NOW WHERE YOU SAID IN THE MID 70s, AMERICA'S FIVE- YEAR CANCER SURVIVAL RATE SAT AT 49%.

TODAY, IT'S 68%.

THAT'S STARTLING.

CONSIDERING HOW RELATIVELY NEW IMMUNOTHERAPY IS AND SOME OF THE WORK HAPPENING WITH RMNA RESEARCH THAT COULD IMPACT CANCER.

IS THIS A PRODUCTIVE TIME FOR CANCER RESEARCH?

>> MANY PEOPLE I SPOKE TO SAID THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST PRODUCTIVE MOMENTS, IF NOT THE MOST PRODUCTIVE MOMENT IN THE HISTORY OF CANCER RESEARCH, BECAUSE WE HAVE ALL OF THAT ACCUMULATED KNOWLEDGE.

WE HAVE ALL OF THESE NEW TECHNOLOGY.

WE HAVE ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE.

THERE'S SO MANY FORCES COMING TOGETHER.

THERE IS, AS YOU SAY, CANCER VACCINES, OTHER CANCER VACCINES BEING DEVELOPED.

THERE ARE NEW STUDIES NOW TO DETECT A CANCER IN THE BLOODSTREAM, YEARS BEFORE YOU HAVE ANY SYMPTOMS.

SO THE ABILITY TO BEGIN TO TREAT CANCER BEFORE IT APPEARS.

THERE'S A NEW RADIATION TREATMENT IN DEVELOPMENT.

IT'S A FLASH OF RADIATION THAT IS LITERALLY A MICROSECOND, AND THAT'S IT.

AND SO RATHER THAN A PROLONGED RADIATION TREATMENT, WHICH CAUSES ALL SORTS OF DAMAGE TO THE SURROUNDING TISSUE, IT HITS THE SPOT AND IN AN INSTANT, AND YOU'RE DONE.

SO, AS I WAS TELLING YOU BEFORE, IMMUNOTHERAPY IS THIS PROMISING AREA.

SO, THERE IS SO MUCH GOING ON RIGHT NOW.

IT'S A REALLY EXCITING TIME FOR CANCER RESEARCH.

OF COURSE, IT'S A TERRIFYING TIME FOR CANCER RESEARCHERS.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THE POLITICS AND THE MOTIVATION OF THIS.

AS YOU DESCRIBE, IF THE N. I. H. STOPPED TAKING MEETINGS WELL BEFORE DOGE CAME IN, THIS SEAMS LIKE PART OF AN ORCHESTRATED PLAN ON WHAT TO DO.

>> THIS WAS A VERY DELIBERATE AND PREMEDITATED CAMPAIGN, AND IT'S NOT AN EASY THING TO DO, BECAUSE THE N.I.H.

AND THE N.C.I., THE NATIONAL CANCER INSTITUTE, WHICH OVER SEES A LOT OF THE CANCER IN THIS COUNTRY.

THEY WERE BUILT TO BE INSULATED FROM POLITICS FOR OBVIOUS REASONS.

SO, IF YOU WANTED TO MAKE -- YOU WANTED TO IMPLEMENTED AN ASSAULT.

IT WILL REQUIRE SOME FORE THOUGHT, AND THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED.

I MEAN, THIS ADMINISTRATION CAME IN AND THEY KNEW EXACTLY WHAT TO DO.

AND HOW THEY WERE GOING TO DO IT, AND THEY START FREEZING GRANTS.

IT'S UNPRECEDENTED FOR ACTIVE RESEARCH GRANTS TO BE CANCELED.

TRULY UNPRECEDENTED.

AND IT WAS HAPPENING BY THE HUNDREDS.

IT'S UNPRECEDENTED FOR UNIVERSITIES TO HAVE THEIR FUNDING FROZEN.

SO THIS ADMINISTRATION, THEY KNEW HOW TO DISRUPT THE SYSTEM, AND THEY DID.

AND WHAT'S PUZZLING TO ME IS, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN EXPLAIN.

THIS IS THE WAR ON GOVERNMENT BUREAUCRACY.

THIS IS PART OF THE WAR ON RESEARCH UNIVERSITIES THAT THEY FEEL ARE TOO PROGRESSIVE.

TOO LEFT.

THIS IS, YOU KNOW, ALSO IMPORTANT TO SAY.

THIS IS PART OF A KIND OF ATTACK ON THE SCIENTIFIC ESTABLISHMENT, WHICH OF COURSE HAS LOST A LOT OF ITS CREDIBILITY IN MANY QUARTERS DURING THE COVID PANDEMIC.

I GET THAT, BUT WHAT'S YOUR PLAN?

ONCE YOU'VE CANCEL ALL THESE GRANTS, ONCE YOU CUT ALL THIS FUNDING, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?

ARE WE JUST GOING TO CONCEDE THE FACT THAT WE'RE GOING TO, YOU KNOW, ESSENTIALLY SURRENDER THE WAR ON CANCER OR IS THERE A PLAN THAT YOU JUST HAVEN'T TOLD THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ABOUT TO BUILD SOMETHING IN ITS PLACE?

I HAVEN'T SEEN ANY EVIDENCE OF A PLAN.

>> YOU HAVE A STATEMENT FROM THE OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT BUDGET.

ESTABLISH A MORE SUSTAINABLE AND ACCOUNTABLE FISCAL PATH FOR NIH WHILE ENSURING RESOURCES MANAGE EFFECTIVELY.

YOU LAY OUT ONE OF THE CRITIQUES BY A SUPPORTER OF ELON MUSK AND THE PRESIDENT AND HE SAYS LOOK, THIS IS A SYSTEM THAT HAS GROWN BLOATED AND BUREAUCRATIC AND IT'S NOT WORKING NEARLY AS FAST AS IT COULD, AND YOU KNOW, THEY WANT TO CHANGE THINGS.

SO, WHAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH THAT CRITIQUE?

>> IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE THE IS NOT A PERFECT SYSTEM BY ANY MEANS.

THERE ARE CRITICISMS ON THE LEFT AND THE RIGHT.

IT HAS GOTTEN BIG.

IT HAS GOTTEN UNWIELDILY.

THERE ARE TOO MANY OLDER SCIENTISTS THAT ARE BLOCKING TOO MANY YOUNGER SCIENTISTS WHO HAVE MORE POTENTIALLY GAME CHANGING IDEAS.

WHO ARE MORE FAMILIAR WITH NEW TECHNOLOGY.

>> SCIENTISTS ARE SPENDING TOO MUCH OF THEIR TIME WRITING GRANT PROPOSALS BECAUSE IT HAS GOTTEN SO COMPETITIVE.

THEY SHOULDN'T BE SPENDING ALL THEIR TIME WRITING PROPOSALS.

I THINK THE PROBLEM IS, THAT THIS IDEA THAT YOU CAN JUST SORT OF DISRUPT THIS SYSTEM, LAKE YOU WOULD DISRUPT THE TECHNOLOGY INDUSTRY AND REPLACE IT WITH STARTUP COMPANIES.

THAT'S NOT HOW SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH WORKS.

IT'S ONE SCIENTIST IN ONE LAB MAKING A SMALL DISCOVERY AND PUBLISHING IT IN A PAPER.

AND ANOTHER SCIENTIST READING THAT PAPER AND SEEING, OH, THAT'S INTERESTING.

I THINK I MIGHT BE ABLE TO ADD A TWIST TO THAT.

I MIGHT BE ABLE TO ADVANCE THAT IDEA A LITTLE FURTHER.

IT IS COLLABORATIVE, IT'S SPWEUPLTAL, IT'S VERY DIFFERENT THAN HOW THE CIVIL CAN VALLEY FUNCTIONS.

SO, I WOULD SAY HIS CRITICISMS OF THE SYSTEM ARE LEGITIMATE.

I THINK THE IDEA THAT IT COULD BE REPLACED BY SOME SORT OF, YOU KNOW, DISRUPTION CENTERED SILICON VALLEY-STYLE APPROACH SEEMS MISGUIDED TO ME.

TO SAY NOTHING OF THE FACT THAT AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, WE HAVEN'T SEEN ANY PROPOSAL FOR WHAT'S COMING NEXT.

>> ARE PEOPLE TODAY SUFFERING FROM THE CUTS THAT ARE COMING TO CANCER RESEARCH?

>> SO, THERE ARE ISOLATED EXAMPLES OF THAT HAPPENING.

THE CHIEF OF SURGERY AT THE NATIONAL CANCER INSTITUTE THAT IS RUNNING A CLINICAL TRIAL TO TREAT CANCER WITH IMMUNOTHERAPY, A FORM OF CANCER THAT HAS NOT BEEN SUCCESSFULLY TREATED WITH IMMUNOTHERAPY.

TWO OF HIS TECHNICIANS WHO BUILD, WHO MANUFACTURE THE CELLS HE NEEDS TO INJECT IN HIS PATIENTS, TO TREAT THEM.

THESE ARE LATE STAGE CANCER PATIENTS.

THESE TWO TECHNICIANS WERE LAYED OFF.

THAT DELAYED THE --THE BIGGER ISSUE THOUGH IS, THE WAY THIS SYSTEM IS STRUCTURED.

THE GOVERNMENT FUNDS THE EARLY STAGE RESEARCH THAT NO PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANY OR BIOTECHNOLOGY COMPANY IS GOING TO INVEST IN, BECAUSE IT IS EXPERIMENTAL, IT'S FOUNDATIONAL.

WHEN IT IS INVESTIGATIVE.

THEN YOU GET PATENTS.

THEN YOU GET BIOTECHNOLOGY COMPANIES.

THEN YOU GET PRIVATE INVESTMENTMENT WHAT WE'RE SEEING NOW IS WHAT ULTIMATELY RESULTS IN A SLOWING OF THAT SURVIVAL RATE, BECAUSE PROGRESS AT THIS EARLY STAGE IS WHAT LEADS TO THE GREAT BREAKTHROUGHS IN TREATMENTS.

THE GREAT SUCCESSFUL CLINICAL TRIALS IN HUMANS, BUT IF YOU TAKE AWAY THAT FOUNDATIONAL RESERGE THAT ONLY THE GOVERNMENT WILL PAY FOR.

NO PRIVATE CITY DOESN'T WANT TO PAY FOR IT.

IT'S TOO SPECULATIVE.

WE'RE SEEING THE SYSTEM KIND OF BEING ATTACKED AT THIS VERY, YOU KNOW, FOUNDATIONAL LEVEL AND WE WON'T REALLY KNOW THE EFFECTS OF IT, YOU SEE THE EFFECTS OF IT FOR YEARS TO COME.

>> JONATHAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> MY PLEASURE, THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> AND FINALLY, FREEDOM FOR THE EGYPTIAN BRITISH ACTIVIST.

ACCORDING TO EGYPT STATE RUN MEDIA, THE PRESIDENT ORDERED THE RELEASE OF THE PROMINENT HUMAN RIGHTS CAMPAIGNER AND BLOGGER.

HE WAS ARRESTED DURING THE ARAB SPRING.

HE HAS BEEN REPEATEDLY DETAINED SINCE THEN AND HE RECEIVED A FIVE YEAR SENTENCE IN 2021, FOR ALLEGEDLY SPREADING FALSE NEWS AND ASSAULTING A POLICE OFFICER.

HUMAN RIGHTS GROUPS CLAIM THE CHARGES WERE POLITICALLY MOTIVATED.

HIS RELEASE WILL BE WELCOMED BY THE MANY WHO ADVOCATED FOR IT, INCLUDING HIS MOTHER, LAYLA, WHO LOBBIED THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT AND HERSELF WENT ON A NINE MONTH HUNGER STRIKE LAST SEPTEMBER DEMANDING HIS RELEASE.

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THANKS FOR WATCHING AND BYE FROM NEW YORK.

> >> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY JIM ATWOOD AND LESLI WILLIAMS.

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