>> NOW, ABOUT 40% OF AMERICANS WILL BE DIAGNOSED WITH A TYPE OF CANCER AT SOME POINT IN THEIR LIVES.

IT'S AN ALARMING STATISTIC.

MADE EVEN MORE SO BY THE FACT THAT CANCER RESEARCH ITSELF IS UNDER THREAT IN THE UNITED STATES.

WITH THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION CONTINUING TO SLASH MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN VITAL FUNDING AND LEAVING COUNTLESS FAMILIES SCRAMBLING FOR OPTIONS.

STAFF WRITER FOR THE "NEW YORK TIMES" MAGAZINE IS INVESTIGATING JUST WHAT KIND OF IMPACT THESE CUTS ALREADY ARE HAVING ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

HE JOINS HARRY TO DISCUSS HIS FINDINGS.

>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOU WROTE A PIECE IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES" MAGAZINE TITLED, TRUMP IS SHUTTING DOWN THE WAR ON CANCER.

AND YOU TAKE SO MANY DIFFERENT APPROACHES IN THIS PIECE.

LET'S START WITH THE FIRST.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THIS?

GIVE ME THE SCALE OF THE WAR ON CANCER AND WHAT HE IS SHUTTING DOWN.

>> YEAH, SO I MEAN THE WAR ON CANCER IS SOMETHING THAT WE STARTED LAUNCHED IN THIS COUNTRY, YOU KNOW, BACK IN 1971.

PRESIDENT NIXON SIGNED THE LEGISLATION, THE NATIONAL CANCER ACT.

AND REALLY WHAT IT WAS, WAS A COMMITMENT TO MAKE A SUSTAINED, LARGE INVESTMENT IN TREATING CANCER AND IMPROVING OUR TREATMENT OF CANCER.

AND OVER THE DECADES THAT INVESTMENT HAS GROWN STEADILY, AND NOW WE REACHED A MOMENT WHERE WE'RE POISED FOR EVEN GREATER BREAKTHROUGHS.

AT THE VERY MOMENT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS DECIDED THAT WE'RE SPENDING, DECIDED THAT WE'RE SPENDING WAY TOO MUCH MONEY TRYING TO CURE CANCER.

AND THE WAR ON THE WAR ON CANCER IS HAPPENING BOTH IN TERMS OF THE CANCELLATION OF INDIVIDUAL GRANTS, SO INDIVIDUAL PROJECTS THAT WERE DEDICATED TO DISCOVERING NEW TREATMENTS.

OR YOU KNOW, ADAPTING NEW TREATMENTS.

IT'S HAPPENING IN TERMS OF FREEZES IN FUNDING TO RESEARCH UNIVERSITIES THAT DEPEND ON N. I. H. MONEY TO KEEP THEIR LABS RUNNING.

ARE SUDDENLY FINDING THAT MONEY FROZEN, NOT APPEARING.

AND THEN IT IS HAPPENING ON A LARGER, EVEN LARGER SCALE AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS STILL A LITTLE BIT TO BE DETERMINED, BUT THE PRESIDENT'S PROPOSED BUDGET FOR NEXT YEAR, WHICH IS STILL BEFORE CONGRESS, IS CALLING FOR A 38% CUT TO OUR CANCER RESEARCH BUDGET.

WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, $3 BILLION.

I MEAN, THIS IS A LOT OF MONEY.

IN ADDITION TO THAT, THE ADMINISTRATION IS TRYING TO LOWER THE REIMBURSEMENT RATE THAT RESEARCH UNIVERSITIES GET FOR THEIR OVERHEAD EXPENSES.

SO, YOU KNOW, UNIVERSITIES THAT ARE CONDUCTING THE RESEARCH, THEY HAVE SCIENTISTS WHO ARE DOING THE WORK.

THEY ALSO HAVE TO KEEP THE LABS RUNNING.

THEY HAVE TO EMPLOY PEOPLE TO, YOU KNOW, TO ADMINISTER THE GRANTS.

THEY HAVE TO PAY FOR THE ELECTRICITY, ETCETERA.

THEY ARE ABLE TO EXPENSE SOME OF THOSE COSTS AND THE ADMINISTRATION WANTS TO DRAMATICALLY LOWER THE REIMBURSEMENT RATE FOR UNIVERSITIES.

SO, IT'S REALLY KIND OF A 360- DEGREE ATTACK ON THIS FUNDING SYSTEM.

>> GIVE ME AN IDEA OR GIVE OUR AUDIENCE SOME PERSPECTIVE HERE.

THIS HAS BEEN HAPPENING FOR DECADES.

HOW SUCCESSFUL HAS THAT WAR BEEN?

WE'RE SPENDING BILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF DOLLARS EVERY YEAR.

I GET THAT.

BUT IS THERE A WAY THAT YOU CAN MEASURE WHAT A $GETS US?

>> YEAH, SO I MEAN, MY FAVORITE STATISTIC IS WHICH WAS PUBLISHED RECENTLY IN THE JOURNAL OF CLINICAL ONCOLOGY.

EVERY $300 THAT THE GOVERNMENT SPENDS ON CANCER RESEARCH EXTENDS SOMEONE'S LIFE BY ONE YEAR.

SO, THAT FEELS LIKE A PRETTY MODEST INVESTMENT TO ME AS SOMEONE WHO LOST HIS MOM TO CANCER.

SEEMS TO ME, PRETTY WORTH IT.

TO SAY NOTHING OF THE FACT THAT THERE ARE ENORMOUS ECONOMIC BENEFITS TO THIS INVESTMENT, TOO.

THE BIOTECHNOLOGY INDUSTRY, THE PHARMACEUTICAL INDUSTRY, ALL OF THE INVESTORS IN THESE COMPANIES HAVE ALL MADE ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF MONEY OFF OF THE RESEARCH THAT BEGAN ON THIS BASIC BIOLOGICAL LEVEL FUNDED BY OUR GOVERNMENT.

>> WHEN SOMEBODY GETS A CANCER TODAY VERSUS PERHAPS OUR PARENTS GENERATION, WHAT IS THE LIKELY OUTCOME?

ARE WE MORE LIKELY TO SURVIVE IT?

ARE THERE FEWER CANCERS THAT ARE KIND OF UNTREATABLE?

>> OUR ABILITY TO TREAT CANCER HAS BEEN DRAMATICALLY TRANSFORMED, PARTICULARLY SINCE THE 1990s, SO REALLY, IF YOU THINK ABOUT HOW THIS WHOLE WAR ON CANCER HAS UNFOLDED, THE FIRST, YOU KNOW, 20 PLUS YEARS WERE REALLY A PERIOD WHERE SCIENTISTS WERE MOSTLY GRAPPLING WITH HOW MUCH MORE COMPLICATED THIS DISEASE WAS THAN THEY HAD REALIZED.

IT IS NOT A SINGLE DISEASE.

IT IS HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DISEASES.

AND EACH ONE BEHAVES DIFFERENTLY ON EVERY ORGAN IN EVERYONE'S BODY.

BEGINNING IN THE LATE 90s, YOU KNOW, WHAT HAD BEEN BASICALLY THE ONLY OPTIONS HISTORICALLY HAD BEEN SURGERY, REALLY, AND THEN CHEMOTHERAPY CAME ALONG AND RADIATION AS WELL.

BUT THESE ARE, YOU KNOW, BOTH RADIATION AND CHEMOTHERAPY ARE TOXIC AND NOT ALWAYS EFFECTIVE.

REALLY WHAT THE BIGGEST INNOVATION AND THE INNOVATION IS BUILDING ON IS IMMUNOTHERAPY.

IMMUNOTHERAPY IS ESSENTIALLY THE USE OF ONE'S IMMUNE SYSTEM, THE STIMULATION OF AN IMMUNE SYSTEM TO DETECT THE MUTANT CANCER CELLS AND FIGHT THE CELLS ITSELF.

SO YOUR IMMUNE SYSTEM DOES THE WORK THAT OTHERWISE THESE TOXIC CHEMOTHERAPY CHEMICALS WOULD BE DOING.

WHICH PEOPLE TOLERATE MUCH BETTER, SO THEIR QUALITY OF LIFE DURING TREATMENT IS MUCH BETTER AND MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE.

THIS IS A NEW, IMMUNOTHERAPY IS RELATIVELY NEW.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT 15 YEARS OR SO.

AND THERE IS STILL A LOT OF CANCERS WHERE THEY ARE JUST BEGINNING TO UNDERSTAND HOW TO USE IMMUNOTHERAPIES.

>> TO EL STRAIT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE RESEARCH ECOSYSTEM, YOU HELP PERSONALIZE IT BY LOOKING AT RACHEL SIRIANI, HER RESEARCH FOCUSES ON AN AGGRESSIVE FORM OF PEDIATRIC CANCER KNOWN AS MEDULA BLASTOMA.

TELL US HER STORY AND HOW IT'S INDICATIVE TO PEOPLE FACING GRANTS.

>> SHE'S WORKING ON BASICALLY A NEW WAY TO DELIVER A DRUG, TO DELIVER DRUGS INTO THE INTERIOR OF THE BRAIN TO ATTACK THIS VERY AGGRESSIVE FORM OF PEDIATRIC BRAIN CANCER, WHICH KILLS HUNDREDS OF KIDS EVERY YEAR.

SO SHE HAS BEEN WORKING STEADILY ON THIS FOR, YOU KNOW, TEN YEARS NOW.

AND SHE HAD THREE N. I. H. GRANTS TO DO THIS WORK.

WAS MAKING GREAT PROGRESS.

HER GRANTS WERE JUST BECAUSE THEY ONLY LAST FOR FIVE YEARS OR SO, WERE COMING UP IN 2025 AND 2026.

SO COMING INTO THIS NEW YEAR, AND THE NEW PRESIDENTIAL ADMINISTRATION, SHE WAS AWARE THAT SHE NEEDED NEW GRANTS TO KEEP HER RESEARCH GOING.

SHE RUNS A LAB WITH SEVEN RESEARCHERS AND TECHNICIANS AND IT'S EXPENSIVE AND TIME CONSUMING WORK, RUNNING ALL THESE STUDIES.

SO SHE HAD SUBMITTED TWO GRANT APPLICATIONS TO KEEP HER WORK GOING TO THE N. I. H. DAYS AFTER THE INAUGURATION, SHE WAS INFORMED THAT THE MEETINGS, WHERE HER GRANTS WERE GOING TO BE CONSIDERED, HAD BEEN CANCELED.

AND SO MONTHS NOW WENT BY, SHE HAD TO START LAYING PEOPLE OFF IN HER LAB.

SHE HAD TO CANCEL ONE OF HER MOST PROMISING STUDIES, AND THEN SHE WAS INFORMED THAT IN JUNE, THAT NEITHER PROJECT WAS GOING TO BE FUNDED.

NOW SHE IS FACED WITH THIS DECISION, WHAT AM I GOING TO DO?

THIS IS THIS IMPORTANT WORK THAT I'M DEVOTED TO, THAT I'VE BEEN DOING FOR YEARS NOW AND I'M MAKING GREAT PROGRESS.

SHE HAS COME TO THIS DECISION NOW THAT FOR THE MOMENT, SHE CAN'T FOCUS ON THIS WORK ANY LONGER, PEDIATRIC BRAIN CANCER IS EXPENSIVE.

IT'S EXPENSIVE BECAUSE IT REQUIRES A VERY SPECIFIC KIND OF LAB MOUSE.

SO NOW SHE DECIDED SHE IS GOING TO PIVOT AWAY FROM IT AND START WORKING IN SOME OTHER FIELDS.

YOU KNOW, WHICH IS TRAGIC.

THIS IS A WOMAN MAKING GREAT STRIDES IN HELPING CHILDREN WITH BRAIN CANCER SURVIVE.

IT'S HARD TO IMAGINE, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING MORE WORTHY FOR OUR GOVERNMENT TO BE INVESTING IN.

AND YET, YOU KNOW, HERE SHE IS, HAVING TO MOVE TO OTHER FIELDS.

>> SO YOU KNOW, WE'RE IN A PERIOD NOW WHERE YOU SAID IN THE MID 70s, AMERICA'S FIVE- YEAR CANCER SURVIVAL RATE SAT AT 49%.

TODAY, IT'S 68%.

THAT'S STARTLING.

CONSIDERING HOW RELATIVELY NEW IMMUNOTHERAPY IS AND SOME OF THE WORK HAPPENING WITH RMNA RESEARCH THAT COULD IMPACT CANCER.

IS THIS A PRODUCTIVE TIME FOR CANCER RESEARCH?

>> MANY PEOPLE I SPOKE TO SAID THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST PRODUCTIVE MOMENTS, IF NOT THE MOST PRODUCTIVE MOMENT IN THE HISTORY OF CANCER RESEARCH, BECAUSE WE HAVE ALL OF THAT ACCUMULATED KNOWLEDGE.

WE HAVE ALL OF THESE NEW TECHNOLOGY.

WE HAVE ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE.

THERE'S SO MANY FORCES COMING TOGETHER.

THERE IS, AS YOU SAY, CANCER VACCINES, OTHER CANCER VACCINES BEING DEVELOPED.

THERE ARE NEW STUDIES NOW TO DETECT A CANCER IN THE BLOODSTREAM, YEARS BEFORE YOU HAVE ANY SYMPTOMS.

SO THE ABILITY TO BEGIN TO TREAT CANCER BEFORE IT APPEARS.

THERE'S A NEW RADIATION TREATMENT IN DEVELOPMENT.

IT'S A FLASH OF RADIATION THAT IS LITERALLY A MICROSECOND, AND THAT'S IT.

AND SO RATHER THAN A PROLONGED RADIATION TREATMENT, WHICH CAUSES ALL SORTS OF DAMAGE TO THE SURROUNDING TISSUE, IT HITS THE SPOT AND IN AN INSTANT, AND YOU'RE DONE.

SO, AS I WAS TELLING YOU BEFORE, IMMUNOTHERAPY IS THIS PROMISING AREA.

SO, THERE IS SO MUCH GOING ON RIGHT NOW.

IT'S A REALLY EXCITING TIME FOR CANCER RESEARCH.

OF COURSE, IT'S A TERRIFYING TIME FOR CANCER RESEARCHERS.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THE POLITICS AND THE MOTIVATION OF THIS.

AS YOU DESCRIBE, IF THE N. I. H. STOPPED TAKING MEETINGS WELL BEFORE DOGE CAME IN, THIS SEAMS LIKE PART OF AN ORCHESTRATED PLAN ON WHAT TO DO.

>> THIS WAS A VERY DELIBERATE AND PREMEDITATED CAMPAIGN, AND IT'S NOT AN EASY THING TO DO, BECAUSE THE N.I.H.

AND THE N.C.I., THE NATIONAL CANCER INSTITUTE, WHICH OVER SEES A LOT OF THE CANCER IN THIS COUNTRY.

THEY WERE BUILT TO BE INSULATED FROM POLITICS FOR OBVIOUS REASONS.

SO, IF YOU WANTED TO MAKE -- YOU WANTED TO IMPLEMENTED AN ASSAULT.

IT WILL REQUIRE SOME FORE THOUGHT, AND THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED.

I MEAN, THIS ADMINISTRATION CAME IN AND THEY KNEW EXACTLY WHAT TO DO.

AND HOW THEY WERE GOING TO DO IT, AND THEY START FREEZING GRANTS.

IT'S UNPRECEDENTED FOR ACTIVE RESEARCH GRANTS TO BE CANCELED.

TRULY UNPRECEDENTED.

AND IT WAS HAPPENING BY THE HUNDREDS.

IT'S UNPRECEDENTED FOR UNIVERSITIES TO HAVE THEIR FUNDING FROZEN.

SO THIS ADMINISTRATION, THEY KNEW HOW TO DISRUPT THE SYSTEM, AND THEY DID.

AND WHAT'S PUZZLING TO ME IS, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN EXPLAIN.

THIS IS THE WAR ON GOVERNMENT BUREAUCRACY.

THIS IS PART OF THE WAR ON RESEARCH UNIVERSITIES THAT THEY FEEL ARE TOO PROGRESSIVE.

TOO LEFT.

THIS IS, YOU KNOW, ALSO IMPORTANT TO SAY.

THIS IS PART OF A KIND OF ATTACK ON THE SCIENTIFIC ESTABLISHMENT, WHICH OF COURSE HAS LOST A LOT OF ITS CREDIBILITY IN MANY QUARTERS DURING THE COVID PANDEMIC.

I GET THAT, BUT WHAT'S YOUR PLAN?

ONCE YOU'VE CANCEL ALL THESE GRANTS, ONCE YOU CUT ALL THIS FUNDING, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?

ARE WE JUST GOING TO CONCEDE THE FACT THAT WE'RE GOING TO, YOU KNOW, ESSENTIALLY SURRENDER THE WAR ON CANCER OR IS THERE A PLAN THAT YOU JUST HAVEN'T TOLD THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ABOUT TO BUILD SOMETHING IN ITS PLACE?

I HAVEN'T SEEN ANY EVIDENCE OF A PLAN.

>> YOU HAVE A STATEMENT FROM THE OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT BUDGET.

ESTABLISH A MORE SUSTAINABLE AND ACCOUNTABLE FISCAL PATH FOR NIH WHILE ENSURING RESOURCES MANAGE EFFECTIVELY.

YOU LAY OUT ONE OF THE CRITIQUES BY A SUPPORTER OF ELON MUSK AND THE PRESIDENT AND HE SAYS LOOK, THIS IS A SYSTEM THAT HAS GROWN BLOATED AND BUREAUCRATIC AND IT'S NOT WORKING NEARLY AS FAST AS IT COULD, AND YOU KNOW, THEY WANT TO CHANGE THINGS.

SO, WHAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH THAT CRITIQUE?

>> IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE THE IS NOT A PERFECT SYSTEM BY ANY MEANS.

THERE ARE CRITICISMS ON THE LEFT AND THE RIGHT.

IT HAS GOTTEN BIG.

IT HAS GOTTEN UNWIELDILY.

THERE ARE TOO MANY OLDER SCIENTISTS THAT ARE BLOCKING TOO MANY YOUNGER SCIENTISTS WHO HAVE MORE POTENTIALLY GAME CHANGING IDEAS.

WHO ARE MORE FAMILIAR WITH NEW TECHNOLOGY.

>> SCIENTISTS ARE SPENDING TOO MUCH OF THEIR TIME WRITING GRANT PROPOSALS BECAUSE IT HAS GOTTEN SO COMPETITIVE.

THEY SHOULDN'T BE SPENDING ALL THEIR TIME WRITING PROPOSALS.

I THINK THE PROBLEM IS, THAT THIS IDEA THAT YOU CAN JUST SORT OF DISRUPT THIS SYSTEM, LAKE YOU WOULD DISRUPT THE TECHNOLOGY INDUSTRY AND REPLACE IT WITH STARTUP COMPANIES.

THAT'S NOT HOW SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH WORKS.

IT'S ONE SCIENTIST IN ONE LAB MAKING A SMALL DISCOVERY AND PUBLISHING IT IN A PAPER.

AND ANOTHER SCIENTIST READING THAT PAPER AND SEEING, OH, THAT'S INTERESTING.

I THINK I MIGHT BE ABLE TO ADD A TWIST TO THAT.

I MIGHT BE ABLE TO ADVANCE THAT IDEA A LITTLE FURTHER.

IT IS COLLABORATIVE, IT'S SPWEUPLTAL, IT'S VERY DIFFERENT THAN HOW THE CIVIL CAN VALLEY FUNCTIONS.

SO, I WOULD SAY HIS CRITICISMS OF THE SYSTEM ARE LEGITIMATE.

I THINK THE IDEA THAT IT COULD BE REPLACED BY SOME SORT OF, YOU KNOW, DISRUPTION CENTERED SILICON VALLEY-STYLE APPROACH SEEMS MISGUIDED TO ME.

TO SAY NOTHING OF THE FACT THAT AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, WE HAVEN'T SEEN ANY PROPOSAL FOR WHAT'S COMING NEXT.

>> ARE PEOPLE TODAY SUFFERING FROM THE CUTS THAT ARE COMING TO CANCER RESEARCH?

>> SO, THERE ARE ISOLATED EXAMPLES OF THAT HAPPENING.

THE CHIEF OF SURGERY AT THE NATIONAL CANCER INSTITUTE THAT IS RUNNING A CLINICAL TRIAL TO TREAT CANCER WITH IMMUNOTHERAPY, A FORM OF CANCER THAT HAS NOT BEEN SUCCESSFULLY TREATED WITH IMMUNOTHERAPY.

TWO OF HIS TECHNICIANS WHO BUILD, WHO MANUFACTURE THE CELLS HE NEEDS TO INJECT IN HIS PATIENTS, TO TREAT THEM.

THESE ARE LATE STAGE CANCER PATIENTS.

THESE TWO TECHNICIANS WERE LAYED OFF.

THAT DELAYED THE --THE BIGGER ISSUE THOUGH IS, THE WAY THIS SYSTEM IS STRUCTURED.

THE GOVERNMENT FUNDS THE EARLY STAGE RESEARCH THAT NO PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANY OR BIOTECHNOLOGY COMPANY IS GOING TO INVEST IN, BECAUSE IT IS EXPERIMENTAL, IT'S FOUNDATIONAL.

WHEN IT IS INVESTIGATIVE.

THEN YOU GET PATENTS.

THEN YOU GET BIOTECHNOLOGY COMPANIES.

THEN YOU GET PRIVATE INVESTMENTMENT WHAT WE'RE SEEING NOW IS WHAT ULTIMATELY RESULTS IN A SLOWING OF THAT SURVIVAL RATE, BECAUSE PROGRESS AT THIS EARLY STAGE IS WHAT LEADS TO THE GREAT BREAKTHROUGHS IN TREATMENTS.

THE GREAT SUCCESSFUL CLINICAL TRIALS IN HUMANS, BUT IF YOU TAKE AWAY THAT FOUNDATIONAL RESERGE THAT ONLY THE GOVERNMENT WILL PAY FOR.

NO PRIVATE CITY DOESN'T WANT TO PAY FOR IT.

IT'S TOO SPECULATIVE.

WE'RE SEEING THE SYSTEM KIND OF BEING ATTACKED AT THIS VERY, YOU KNOW, FOUNDATIONAL LEVEL AND WE WON'T REALLY KNOW THE EFFECTS OF IT, YOU SEE THE EFFECTS OF IT FOR YEARS TO COME.

>> JONATHAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> MY PLEASURE, THANKS FOR HAVING ME.